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Old 06-07-2023, 12:08 PM   #11551
slac-in-the-box
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Yes. The shaggy manes are yummy!

Although the vaccines work with the bodies protective systems, it is us introducing something to "trick" the bodies protective systems. I suspect my immune system is a collective immune system involving the immunities from all the creatures that are supposed to harmoniously reside in, on, and around me. I suspect that if I become susceptible to a disease, it is not because I didn't get the right vaccine, but because the creatures who protect me from that disease are missing.

I don't believe I am all the way anti-vaccine. I believe in public domain vaccines, with the right to choose. Like software, I want to see the code, and be able to compile it at home if needed. This gains my trust. As long as I can audit the code, compile the code myself into my own binary, I often won't. Because PV's binaries are already there and working, I don't need to recompile; yet, he shared his sources too, so recompiling is always an option. This gains trust.

Medicines should be the same way. Like GPL. Medical science ought to be the art of sharing open source recipes for medicines, vaccines included, that can be produced in home or village laboratories.

Like software, not everyone will want to go through the learning curve to learn how to make those medicines, and would prefer to buy them. Everyone should be free to manufacture any of the medicines to sell to this market of those who don't feel like making their own.

In this system, intellectual lore is freely shared, and the income is in the production; futhermore the production is accessible to those who learn the lore, and carried out by smaller village and home production cooperatives.

Such a system is more trustable than super secret gigantic "medicine" factories competing to supply the entire globe.

Without trust, its not medicine at all.

I think the "medicine of trust" was damaged by voldemort-911.

I now start to look at other vaccines I took for granted with a suspicious eye: do I really need to give my dog the rabies vaccine, or was Old Yeller a plot to put the fear of hydrophobia into everybody to be exploited? Perhaps the fear of lockjaw has been programmed into the population to rake in tetanus vaccine profits. I actually don't know anyone who has ever gotten the lockjaw, or the rabies--perhaps because of successful vaccinations in this area; or perhaps because it hardly ever happens. I do suspect hydrophobia as possible origin of zombiphobia

Nevertheless, my prior trust got damaged to a degree that I don't think I'll get another tetanus, even when my decade expires, just to find out. Odds are I will cut myself on something rusty around this farm eventually. I have met some logging families who are completely unvaccinated since birth--no mmr, no tetanus, never any shots at all (some don't even have social security numbers). They toss logs around like toothpicks, and end up passing from either logging accidents, or the early old age that comes to those who consume too much inorganic processed foods. They have cut themselves on rusty nails and their jaws have not locked up.

That's why I went feral. More creatures in, on, and around me. Voldemort-911, made me re-think how I maintained the kitchen. I stopped using dish soaps, or spraying my counter with sterilizer. I used to be squeamish about eating or drinking after people, but now I look at an unfinished plate as an opportunity for increased exposure... as mentioned prior, I've added raw insects and occasionally raw invertebrates to my diet, also for whatever creatures they add. Unfortunately, my spouse is grossed out and not on board at all. I think she's starting to view me as a self-contaminated shipwreck, crawling with bugs, and unsafe to snuggle. But amazingly, I can't find a bug on me. I don't itch. My hair is not greasy, even though I haven't used shampoo in nearly three years. I never use sunscreen and garden like adam in eden, and since I'm out there on the first sunny days of spring, by the time summer is full on, my skin has fully acclimated: I feel a daily skin potion would be more likely to cause a cancer than the sun, when the sun is respected enough to acclimate to. Of course, you can't just leave an indoor habitat for the beach one week in the summer, and expect your skin to handle it... but don't let those people give the sun a bad wrap.

So that's my report: I keep discarding what is commonly thought needed for health; and I still feel healthy. If I get tetanus or skin cancer, I'll tell you all how wrong I was.
 
Old 06-07-2023, 12:24 PM   #11552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
The relationships you eloquently allude to are a great example of Evolution. We have relationships with other lifeforms insofar as we evolved with them so we all adjusted over time to try to get along. Hazel here once noted that viruses that start out deadly soon evolve into less deadly forms because, much like the fallacy of fictional Vampires, it's wiser to keep hosts alive rather than require wholesale murder. There are of course predators and prey but the vast majority that survive for many generations employ, quite by chance (survival of the fittest), cooperation, collaboration and in some cases, cohabitation.
It could be that two predators in balance keep could keep each other in check, and these creature's immunity might be what's missing. Without the other to keep it in check, it could get falsely classified as predator.

Perhaps, instead of trying to dominate and trick nature, all that is needed is learning and restoring the natural balance of critters in, on, and around us.
 
Old 06-07-2023, 04:38 PM   #11553
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Originally Posted by slac-in-the-box View Post
Perhaps, instead of trying to dominate and trick nature, all that is needed is learning and restoring the natural balance of critters in, on, and around us.
We disagree on that point and I think the pros and cons evident in human progress are important lessons but we can get myopic due to romanticizing our "noble savage" past especially in a climate of distrusting experts especially where Science is involved. That distrust is not without cause since it can be extremely difficult to avoid "snake oil" cons when the profit motive is in effect along with deep divisions between rich and poor, where basic survival and healthcare are absolutely trivial to some and a day to day losing struggle for others. That Los Angeles now has almost 500,000 homeless is evidence for how that gap is growing.

Personally, because I don't see any evidence for the so-called "supernatural", I don't have any confidence that Nature is one single thing let alone a sentient entity like Gaia. Not being sentient, Nature cannot possibly "be tricked" nor can it be dominated. If a thing can occur, it is because it is within the possibilities of natural law. Ants can lift something like 10 times their own weight exactly because of their scale of size. Humans can't without creating machines that can operate within the demands of the Cube-Square Law. It's also why 15 foot tall humans are impossible on Planet Earth just as elephants can't grow proportionately to twice their size and why we can't breathe under water unless we create suits few super-oxygenated water. Super-oxygenated water couldn't exist without the natural conditions on Earth that allow it.

Scripture has considerable blame in that whole "dominion" concept. Being taught as children that the Lord of the Universe granted His special children dominion over all else in Nature was in my view Humanity writing itself license and a blank check to ignore natural law and do whatever we please or desire and "damn the torpedoes". This is also one reason that some, even some here on LQN, hang on to absurd beliefs like Young Earth since a few billion years with species that have existed on Earth orders of magnitude longer than humans is rather inconvenient to the concept of human dominion and Carl Sagan's "Cosmic Calendar" is tantamount to High Heresy... 13.5 Billion years indeed!

Similarly the facts are that while medicine is not Science, it's a practice, and does still make serious mistakes from time to time, like all surviving practices it has improved with Time. There is a reason that bubonic plague could not possibly have a similar effect in the 21st Century as it did 700 years ago. One of my uncles would never have had to live and die with Polio had the vaccine been developed just 10 years earlier. The instance of death during childbirth is something like one thousandth of what it used to be because of progress in human knowledge.

If you want to know when the first tipping point in understanding Nature and thereby Natural Law you need loos no further than the inventions of the telescope and the microscope. It was so hard for the Christians, even with and in some cases especially among it's scholars, to accept what telescopes revealed about the actual nature of the world that it took over 300 years to even contemplate apologizing for it's censure of Galileo Galilei. Had he been less important he might well have been burned at the stake. Many were.

I find it absolutely appalling that anyone in the 21st Century can even imagine they could survive in such an environment, let alone want to. More importantly, I find this trend possibly becoming an extremely harsh lesson reminder of the the reason for the warning, "Be careful what you wish for..."
 
Old 06-07-2023, 11:35 PM   #11554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
We disagree on that point and I think the pros and cons evident in human progress are important lessons but we can get myopic due to romanticizing our "noble savage" past especially in a climate of distrusting experts especially where Science is involved. ...

If you want to know when the first tipping point in understanding Nature and thereby Natural Law you need loos no further than the inventions of the telescope and the microscope. It was so hard for the Christians, even with and in some cases especially among it's scholars, to accept what telescopes revealed about the actual nature of the world that it took over 300 years to even contemplate apologizing for it's censure of Galileo Galilei. Had he been less important he might well have been burned at the stake. Many were.

I find it absolutely appalling that anyone in the 21st Century can even imagine they could survive in such an environment, let alone want to. More importantly, I find this trend possibly becoming an extremely harsh lesson reminder of the the reason for the warning, "Be careful what you wish for..."
I'm not claiming Hobbes was wrong about life in a state of nature, and don't think he was overly romanticizing it.

I'm only going back to where you mentioned: the emergence of these microscopes. Due, probably because of the great plague that you mention, once we discovered these invisible moving creatures in our lenses, we set out to destroy them. I suspect we've gone overboard in their destruction, and over-sterilized both our own biomes and our shared spaces, without first fully understanding which is which and who is who in this microspace. I'm not talking about giving up the magna carta or science. I'm only suggesting that there's not much profit in discovering that its healthy to be dirty, but not too dirty, so they're probably not devoting much research that direction.

I do understand that you can call all our technology and progress part of evolution. But I believe as the microspace is further explored, we're going to find there's less harmfuls than we thought, once we understand the relationShips. I hope my autopsy reveals something useful.
 
Old 06-08-2023, 12:37 AM   #11555
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Just to be clear technological progress is a totally different kind of evolution that began with written language different from biological evolution that is basically an extension of biological adaptation to changing or changed environments. I happen to agree with you that extreme control over one's immediate environment tends to take us out of the loop and make us weaker out in the real world. There is currently a global trend of increased allergic reactions and allergists note that "our children don't play in dirt enough" so never developed immunities important to the ancient and tiny parts still part of modern life.

It is bound to be quite interesting and I suspect rather instructive when mankind does truly begin to colonize other worlds living in actual bubbles. We may find we will need to import some of our microscopic little buddies to maintain a healthy balance. I also agree that we as a species did act way too boldly on little understanding and to some extent heady hubris fueled by scientific discovery played some part in that but I wonder if that could even have taken hold had it not been for the sanctimonious conceit of the Dominion Concept. Perhaps we can revisit the idea of the "Crown of Creation" once we've racked up similar numbers to gators, roaches and horseshoe crabs.
 
Old 06-08-2023, 12:47 AM   #11556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Scripture has considerable blame in that whole "dominion" concept. Being taught as children that the Lord of the Universe granted His special children dominion over all else in Nature was in my view Humanity writing itself license and a blank check to ignore natural law and do whatever we please or desire and "damn the torpedoes". This is also one reason that some, even some here on LQN, hang on to absurd beliefs like Young Earth since a few billion years with species that have existed on Earth orders of magnitude longer than humans is rather inconvenient to the concept of human dominion and Carl Sagan's "Cosmic Calendar" is tantamount to High Heresy... 13.5 Billion years indeed!
I believe that both these problems stem from the misinterpretation of scripture. I don't want to go over evolution again: you, I and business_kid have flogged that to death between us. But when it comes to the concept of dominion, it's worth remembering that the Old Testament was written by Jews for Jews, so you have to look at Jewish ideas of kingship to know what "dominion" actually means. A Jewish king had a job to do: he led his people in war and judged them in peace. But there were three things he was not allowed to do (they are listed somewhere in the Torah but I can't remember exactly where).

1) He could not accumulate gold, using his power for his own profit
2) He could not accumulate wives, using his power for his own pleasure
3) He could not accumulate warhorses, using his power to get more power.

In genesis, the planet is described as a garden. Man was given dominion over it to tend it, make it beautiful and prevent weeds from taking over and crowding out all the flowers. When mankind fell into sin, that dominion was taken away again because we were no longer fit to exercise it. "When you till the land...thorns and thistles it will bear for you."

The present ecological emergency shows how trying to get back our lost dominion behind God's back, as it were, doesn't work.
 
Old 06-08-2023, 02:20 AM   #11557
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Thank you hazel for clarifying the meaning of dominion at least as it applies to Kings. I don't doubt for a nanosecond that misinterpretation is involved in mankind's hubris as there are so many different sects, each with their own interpretations, and even the main 3 disagree on the number of books to be included in their official bible. However I can't find any reference to God rescinding "replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." I can only find banishment from the Garden of Eden requiring man to "work the ground". How does this apply to dominion, to the idea that our planet was created especially for mankind?

Now that I think on it, where was Eden located that it needed to be guarded against any human intrusion?
 
Old 06-09-2023, 12:02 AM   #11558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
However I can't find any reference to God rescinding "replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." I can only find banishment from the Garden of Eden requiring man to "work the ground". How does this apply to dominion, to the idea that our planet was created especially for mankind?
I interpret the words "Cursed is the ground for your sake. When you till it, it will no longer bear you fruit. Thorns and thistles it will yield to you, and you will have to live by your sweat." as the rescinding of dominion. Unfallen man could simply order the thistles not to grow in his cabbage patch; fallen man is greedy and wants the whole planet as his cabbage patch, so the thorns and thistles are given the right to ignore us and grow where they please. And when we try to get around that by poisoning them with herbicides, the weeds simply become resistant to them.

Quote:
Now that I think on it, where was Eden located that it needed to be guarded against any human intrusion?
The location of Eden apparently in a known place (Cain settles down to the east of it) is only one of the weird things about the pre-flood world. We seem to glimpse a different world altogether. The geography is quite different (the Nile rises from the same source as the Tigris and Euphrates) and time moves at a different rate, so that people live to a ridiculous age. Then the flood covers it, and when the waters recede, it is our world that emerges. Noah's sons become the ancestors of the peoples the original readers would have known, and lifetimes quickly drop from the mythical (centuries) to the merely legendary (over a hundred if you're very lucky). Within a couple of generations, the first ziggurat is going up in Babylon.

This is actually a widespread idea in many cultures, for example the aboriginal "Dream time" or Blake's age of Albion, or Tolkien's First Age. It's as if the Bible has conflated the Babylonian flood myth with this completely different idea that "something happened", some catastrophic change in human perception which changed the whole world, and we cannot ever get back to the way it was before. Whereas in the cognate flood story told in Babylon, the flood is merely a tiresome interruption in history and when it recedes, all the cities are rebuilt on the same sites.

Last edited by hazel; 06-09-2023 at 12:03 AM.
 
Old 06-11-2023, 07:09 AM   #11559
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We have no proof, but read the early Genesis account to mean roughly as follows

Yes the ground was cursed after the rebellion, but we believe the curse was lifted after the Flood.

With a much flatter earth and a water canopy we prefer the view the earth could have been flooded by the water canopy. Simple physics would indicate that the barometric pressure would have been higher in that environment. The healing effects of hyperbaric chambers are well known, and it would probably have been a factor in the longer lifespans. We don't think time ran at a different speed before & after the Flood. For one thing, Noah's son Shem lived a long time after the Flood, 400-500 years. I'm not bothered working it out. Jewish tradition apparently labelled Shem "the Burier" because of the number of generations he outlived. His brothers lived some hundreds of years also.

There would have been considerable geological turbulence:
  • Perhaps at the start of the Flood, to kickstart it.
  • During the Flood, as the waters receded.

We therefore don't know if the floodwaters receded, grounding the Ark on the Kurdish Mountains in Iraq, or the mountains came up to meet the Ark, and it ran aground that way.

Eden was indeed a known place. Angels were left to guard it after the rebellion. There's no mention of it or the angels after the Flood. The best clue we have is that the Tigris and Euphrates, along with apparently some tributaries passed through it. River paths can change, especially given the Flood but we can probably say it was in the Middle East.
 
Old 06-11-2023, 11:07 AM   #11560
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
The healing effects of hyperbaric chambers are well known, and it would probably have been a factor in the longer lifespans.
And bigger, taller humans, which means bigger cubits, and thus bigger ark, but not bigger young animals.
 
Old 06-11-2023, 02:13 PM   #11561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post
And bigger, taller humans, which means bigger cubits, and thus bigger ark, but not bigger young animals.
I never said that. Human bones fuse when we're in our teens or early twenties, so we stop growing up. I think that's true of many mammals.

That's not true of reptiles or insects, so they indeed could grow bigger over time. I attached a picture of a sea shell. I'm not trying to prove anything here, but those things grow an extra section each year, so that gives an indication of how many years that was growing for. That might back up or refute my hypothesis. It's better than mystical or fabulous stories where reality is suspended. Witnesses only go by scripture, which omits these details.
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Old 06-11-2023, 04:40 PM   #11562
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What I meant about "not bigger young animals" was sizes selected for inclusion on the ark needn't have had anything to do with how fast or large their size was capable of reaching, so could be smaller in proportion to ark size.

Higher oxygen concentration surely could or should have equated to more efficient growth during youth, thus longer bones before fusing, backed up by mention of giants in the Bible and elsewhere, and human skeletons found in the 9' and up range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_people has a good sized list of people verified at over 8' tall. Kent Hovid's video series includes a depiction of a human skeleton found in an Italian coal mine that was claimed to be 11' 6".
 
Old 06-11-2023, 10:56 PM   #11563
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There are no verified human skeletons in excess of 9 feet tall. The myth of previous gigantism was instigated by fosslized bones of ancient species. Without exception humans in excess of a little over 7 feet in height have extreme health issues and difficulties with mobility. There are upper limits to how large a bipedal mammal can get. Raptors and other species of dinosaurs are often imagined to be the height of telephone poles but the largest T Rex skeleton ever discovered was just 13 feet (3.9m) and this was only possible because most of their bones were hollow, like birds.

From the above link....
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_tallest_people
According to the Guinness World Records, the tallest human in recorded history was Robert Wadlow of the United States (1918–1940), who was 272 cm (8 ft 11 in). He received media attention in 1939 when he was measured to be the tallest man in the world, beating John Rogan's record, after reaching a height of 267 cm (8 ft 9 in).

There are reports about even taller people but most of such claims are unverified or erroneous. Since antiquity, it has been reported about the finds of gigantic human skeletons. Originally thought to belong to mythical giants, these bones were later identified as the exaggerated remains of prehistoric animals, usually whales or elephants.[1][2][3][4][5] Regular reports in American newspapers in the 18th and 19th century of giant human skeletons[6][7][8] may have inspired the case of the "petrified" Cardiff Giant, a famous archaeological hoax.[7][9][10]
FWIW Kent Hovind (sp?) has zero degrees from any accredited universities or colleges and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Kent Hovind
Having a website called "Dr. Dino" has provoked some academics to look closely at how Hovind presents his education and credentials. All his known degrees are from unaccredited institutions, and he has no training in paleontology.[13]
To actually imagine that early humans lived side-by-side with dinosaurs is obviously ludicrous. Even fairly well armed a person would be lucky to survive more than a few days. Then, of course, there is that pesky 150 kilometer diameter crater just off the coast of Yucatan.
 
Old 06-11-2023, 11:50 PM   #11564
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
There are no verified human skeletons in excess of 9 feet tall. The myth of previous gigantism was instigated by fosslized bones of ancient species.
...
To actually imagine that early humans lived side-by-side with dinosaurs is obviously ludicrous.
It's no myth to those who believe in the whole Bible, those who don't corrupt it by somehow rationalizing old earth with the Genesis 1 account. There was and is only one human kind, roughly 6,000 years old, continuing to date, all descendants of Ad'am and No'ah.

No better explanation I'm aware of has ever been proposed with a sound scientific basis why the human population hasn't long since overwhelmed the planet's capacity to support it than the Biblical account. Regressive analysis of historical population growth has found current population fits nicely within a 4.4 thousand year old time frame matching the flood of No'ah's time.

Quote:
Even fairly well armed a person would be lucky to survive more than a few days.
To "live with dinosaurs" doesn't necessarily imply they lived with or near the seriously bigger ones than the giants they were. Dinosaurs was a word first found in dictionaries in the 19th century. The primary Biblical word for dinosaurs is dragons, but there are about 3 others I don't recall.

Quote:
Then, of course, there is that pesky 150 kilometer diameter crater just off the coast of Yucatan.
The cause of that pesky crater could have been the cause of the shaking of the fountains of the deep and instigating the death of the moisture canopy protecting the earth, and keeping oxygen density higher than we now have, that enabled the relative giantism, turning it into torrential rain.
 
Old 06-12-2023, 12:04 AM   #11565
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
FWIW Kent Hovind (sp?) has zero degrees from any accredited universities or colleges
Some of the world's smartest people, current and past, never wasted their time on formal advanced education. Currently, getting a college degree is too often little more than a way to lose productive years digging a debt hole that can take a lifetime to overcome. I enjoy Hovind's presentations on creation. He clearly knows how to make good use of his brain.
 
  


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