The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by hazel Russian Orthodox Christians apparently feel the same way! One of Putin's church cronies recently said on TV that a nuclear war would be a good thing overall because then all the Russians would go straight to heaven and the rest of us would just die. When people who actually have access to nuclear weapons think like that, God help the rest of us!

I concur! ... well excepting the "God help us" part. I'm a bit closer to the slippery kludge of "God helps those who help themselves" However this is an example of why anyone, including most obviously me, would "waste time" posting repeatedly in a thread about religion and spirituality. THIS is what is so dangerous about the magical thinking that fosters the whole "Chosen People" concepts, and they outnumber the rational AND are in positions of power! AND have access to unimaginably deadly resources!

The one concept that could be interpreted to support such wild claims as all the "End of the World" cults, is the realization that things cannot continue as they are. This can be as vague as Carl Sagan's recognition of one of the motivations in contacting superior alien intelligence is "How did you do it? How did you survive technological weaponry?" It can also be at least hinted at was a somewhat casual study I read from the 1970s.

G. Harry Stine, literally a rocket scientist who worked at the dawn of the so-called Space Age at White Sands Proving Grounds, plotted several graphs. Here's an example of what they graphed and how it was done. Consider speed, the velocity at which the average Earthling could move in relation to Time. So for a million years or so, humans could only walk and run, so top velocity was say 6-10 mph. We can argue the exact date but it isn't significant to the graph considering the slope, that perhaps ~8000 years ago humans began domesticating animals and horses increased average velocity attainable to perhaps 25 mph. Once steam engines were invented, velocity increased perhaps by the early 1800s, to ~40mph (note that some worried that incredible speed might deprive those at the front of trains of oxygen ) and well, you get the progression I'm sure.

The 20th Century saw exponential increase in average velocity. Millions of frequent flyers routinely travel at ~600 mph... and a few have traveled at thousands, even tens of thousands of mph. He plotted several graphs just like this for average energy consumption, lifespan, disposable wealth, etc. and of course some of the data was quite coarse but all of them sloped upward at logarithmic rates. In face because of the initial very long periods of time between advancement, he had to change scales to first log scale, and then log-log scale to keep from becoming a straight line. Nevertheless EVERY graph, even as reverse log log adjustment to minimize slope, went asymptotic some time in mid 21st Century.

Obviously it is absolutely impossible that the average energy consumption of any single human, even ALL humans on Earth, can consume the total energy of the Sun in a year as the graph indicates is the trend of the progression. The same is true for Lifespan, population, speed, and all the other fundamental graphs. Some great change must take place to interrupt that slope. It's quite unlikely that a small change has enough time to effect that degree of change even in 100 years and especially in a dozen fundamental areas. It's going to take something on the level of The Black Death or Arthur Clarke's "Childhood's End" to alter that slope in so short a time... OR, maybe that's just our inability to see the results DURING paradigm transition. The Information Age has changed EVERYTHING and it's just begun.

I can't help but recall the supposed Chinese Curse, "May you live in interesting times".

I should clarify... The scientists trying to get people to process and react to impending doom was what brought on deja vue. I haven't been there with a date in mind, but I have been there with a time period in mind.

business_kid, I'm reasonably aware of the JW position on "The Imminent End of the World" with which you seem to concur, if that's what you mean. Personally I think that two people as both alike and different as we can view the same thing and interpret it with our own unique emphases and take is a testament to the higher values in Humanity and a reason we have progressed from naked prey to the top of the food chain and at the very same time come to understand so much more about our existence in Nature than most likely any other animal that has ever existed on Earth. It is also a testament to the depth and breadth of meaning possible in Art, certainly a contender for the highest achievements of humankind.... and isn't it fascinating that can come out of as scathing a fault-finding satire right up there with Jonathan Swift in my view.

I think you would enjoy the book and/or the film "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke.

When we look at the wars, myopic planetary destruction, racial injustice, crime etc that we see today, it is not fitting in this environment for humans to talk about the pinnacle of their achievement. Mankind can not govern himself.

I believe mankind's best days are ahead of him, but not under their own rulership.

For the religious among us, I do believe that Matthew 24 contains plenty enough cautions about people who are too-eager to tell you what the future will be:

At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

My point being – and whether you agree with me or not – whether or not you consider these words to be "scripture," there is practical wisdom here.

Because: perhaps the very easiest way to manipulate someone is to exploit his natural concerns about the future, using his already-clear points of view, which he is very unlikely to question because he reflexively considers you to be "one like him." Be warned.

"Proud Boys." "J6." "Kidnap the governor." Real-world examples are today all around us ... of lambs being led to the slaughter.

Originally Posted by business_kid I believe mankind's best days are ahead of him, but not under their own rulership.

"Who, then, do you propose?" If we cannot save ourselves, who would have the slightest motivation to do so for us? Just askin' ...

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs "Who, then, do you propose?" If we cannot save ourselves, who would have the slightest motivation to do so for us? Just askin' ...

In view of post #10385, you will be cautious and skeptical and learn nothing until it's too late. Why should I waste effort? Prejudice allows folks to make up their minds up quickly because they don't need all the facts. There's a lot of it here, and folks learn nothing.

Yes, people have been making mistakes; They see some signs, and call the end. There have been a lot of false alarms. Yes, the warnings were put there for a specific generation. Hence, the illustration of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-33:

"[32] Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. [33] Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors."

The fig tree was the last tree to blossom & fruit in Israel in Jesus' day. So when that came, everything else was already there. All the boxes could be ticked. But I've already pestered folks here about the 'fig tree' I see today and nobody could see it.

Probably the very easiest way to deceive someone is to pretend that you agree with an opinion which he holds very dearly and strongly. He has a strong internal incentive to believe you, and he essentially drives himself in the way you want him to go. If he believes that you are a kindred spirit, he will overlook signs to the contrary.

Originally Posted by business_kid In view of post #10385, you will be cautious and skeptical and learn nothing until it's too late. Why should I waste effort? Prejudice allows folks to make up their minds up quickly because they don't need all the facts. There's a lot of it here, and folks learn nothing.

Firstly, so anyone interested doesn't have to search though dozens of pages to get to post #10385 (which is one of mine) I figured I'd quote it in full here to try to discover what business_kid finds offensive.

Originally Posted by enorbet@post#10385 Here is the reason "water divining" even came up in the Faith and Religion thread and also the crux of the different ways people arrive at their conclusions. First there is the total reliance on ancient scriptures from a time of unimaginable superstition and upheaval in culture, technology and fact gathering tools, as well as language and then there is the complete lack of understanding of the alternative of the logic-based scientific method. NO accredited scientist(s) assumes we know everything, exactly the opposite. Real scientists assume almost everything will be expanded, revised, and in a few cases dropped as new evidence and new events (and the ability to "view" and measure them) will surely arise.

So what's the problem with that? If it is because you consider the Christian Bible to be the penultimate source of wisdom, above all else then or since, is it just on spiritual matters or on everything in your life? Have we learned exactly nothing? Do you think the world in 2022 is basically the same as it was ~34 BC?

Originally Posted by business_kid Yes, people have been making mistakes; They see some signs, and call the end. There have been a lot of false alarms. Yes, the warnings were put there for a specific generation. Hence, the illustration of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-33: The fig tree was the last tree to blossom & fruit in Israel in Jesus' day. So when that came, everything else was already there. All the boxes could be ticked. But I've already pestered folks here about the 'fig tree' I see today and nobody could see it.

I think the fig tree passage is perfectly fine, if a bit obvious, when taken literally and specifically but as allegory it is pure license. Basically in my view it is the same wide open license as "Perception equals Reality" or "If it feels good, do it". It marks one of the differences between "lower" lifeforms and higher ones (that is "lower and higher" from human perspective). Most rodents given a choice between food and many drugs will keep pushing the drug dispenser lever until they soon die of starvation, and some humans will, too, albeit usually over a much longer period of time than a rat. I don't know why some rodents don't follow that suicidal pattern but people seem to finally "get it" and stop once the sub-conscious urge manifests sufficiently to become that person's "rock bottom". It is ONLY when the problem finally breaks through instinct and becomes possible to see in the forebrain, that addicts successfully fight that instinct.

It seems to me that on some level, you desire to not think critically and make decisions, that we humans are as children requiring some sort of governing "parent" (Our Father?) to keep us on the straight and narrow so we don't destroy ourselves. Not that you are interested in dissenting views but it seems to me that 2022 is FAR less brutal and dangerous and short, especially for Joe Average, than it was in 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10,000 years ago and that progression is largely a concomitant trajectory with education in Reason and Logic. It is why our Justice systems have strict guidelines for evidence discrimination largely based on the scientific method.

In my view, Scriptures are the very definition of "Argument From Authority".. important, but open to abuse and con jobs, requiring critical thought and decisions.

Originally Posted by enorbet Firstly, so anyone interested doesn't have to search though dozens of pages to get to post #10385 (which is one of mine)

I wonder if it was actually a typo for #10835, seems like it would fit better.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs "Who, then, do you propose?" If we cannot save ourselves, who would have the slightest motivation to do so for us? Just askin' ...

I mean, isn't the intended answer obviously Jesus?

Originally Posted by ntubski I wonder if it was actually a typo for #10835, seems like it would fit better.

Yes it was

@enorbet: Here is basically what I think. I think that there is a perhaps-ephemeral, yet valid, plane of human experience and perception which is beyond "science."

"I don't know why I want to do this. I can't explain why I right now feel as I do. I might prove to be utterly wrong but I'm going to do this right now anyway."

Call it religion. Call it "gut feelings." "Instinct." "A still, small voice." I submit that all of us have heard it. And that, therefore, all of us should pay attention to it, whether or not we can "rationally" articulate a "rational reason" for doing so.

While "science" is an enormously powerful way of regarding the world, it also carries with it limits which it has purposely imposed upon itself. Of course these limits are the secrets of its power. However, I find no reason to limit myself to any such limits. I'm quite ready to first "step inside of its box," but then to step outside of it. And I see no contradiction in doing so.

If I think that I have just heard "a still, small voice," I'm going to choose to listen to it. I'm not going to shut it down. I'm not going to demand rationality. Instead, I'm going to "follow my gut." Just because.

P.S.: We have recently discovered that our abdomens contain neurons. ... ... ...

Instead of being contradictory, I find "religion" and "science" to be complementary.

Human beings have pursued both concerns with equal fervor, and I do not believe that either of them were ever "wrong." Instead, I believe that each of them reached their respective goalposts. Each in their own way, each according to their own rules.

I have nothing to prove.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs Instead of being contradictory, I find "religion" and "science" to be complementary.

Bingo!

Young earth, created about 6,000 years ago through intelligent design, and global flood about 4,000 years ago, are better supported by unadulterated science, than is the pseudo science of millions and billions of years and chance. There is far too much order in things to have arrived by chance.

sundialsvcs, I totally agree with your above assessment. I just choose to go with the odds and in way more cases than not, distrust instinct. That isn't to say I don't enjoy, let alone recognize, such things as "muscle memory" because such trained instincts let loose are way faster than critical thinking... but I would and do never trust them as a path to grasping reality. You're right. Science, Logic, Reason all are limited but that is reality, too. Nothing we know of is unlimited, so probability is the best we've got.