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Old 10-01-2021, 09:28 PM   #10261
jamison20000e
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U FforgivenessG idiot$! Only god would be such an idiot to forgive such morons...

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Old 10-02-2021, 11:19 AM   #10262
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You OK jamison?
 
Old 10-06-2021, 05:28 PM   #10263
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I'm going to label this post Off Topic because it is a tangent. However it does bear on the subject of Middle Bronze Age History with a bent towards so-called "End Times". Each can speculate how much that applies to the present either in understanding possible motivations and points of view that affected the writing of the foundations of Religion and how interpretations can vary... even when there does exist evidence.

In any case if you have any interest in Ancient History I think you may find this scholarly symposium fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LRHJlijVU
 
Old 10-07-2021, 10:00 AM   #10264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I'm going to label this post Off Topic because it is a tangent. However it does bear on the subject of Middle Bronze Age History with a bent towards so-called "End Times". Each can speculate how much that applies to the present either in understanding possible motivations and points of view that affected the writing of the foundations of Religion and how interpretations can vary... even when there does exist evidence.

In any case if you have any interest in Ancient History I think you may find this scholarly symposium fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LRHJlijVU
Interesting. Like you say, it's a tangent.

I zeroed in on his assigning the Philistines as a "Sea People." He could be half right, I decided. The Philistines were a Canaanite people. But during the times of the patriarchs (1900BCE - 1700BCE) they were ruled by a king (Always called Abimelech) of Gerar (Today's Gaza).

By the time of Samson, however(about 1250BC), the Philistines were ruled by 5 axis lords in 5 separate cities. The Israrelites took that land from them in the 11th century BCE under King David.

It's interesting to hear a historian mention written history on his wish list. That's what the Bible is, although it doesn't get the same respect here.
 
Old 10-07-2021, 10:15 AM   #10265
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One of the later prophets (I've forgotten which one) mentions in passing that the Philistines originally came from Caphtor, i.e.Crete. If that is so, then they weren't Canaanites. It's interesting that the Bible frequently refers to the Philistines as being uncircumcised, whereas it never uses this word about Canaanite tribes like the Amorites.
 
Old 10-07-2021, 11:20 AM   #10266
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The Hebrew word is also the origin of our "Palestinian". What seems to have happened is
1. Philistines arrive from the Aegean and settle on the coast at the end of the Bronze Age, having been repelled by the Egyptians.
2. The term comes to be used in the sense of "dwellers on the coast". Biblical authors use it in that sense, making Goliath a Philistine, although he was actually a Canaanite.
 
Old 10-07-2021, 01:19 PM   #10267
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It doesn't look like either of you tried a Concordance. "Caphtor" occurs in:
  1. Deut. 2:19:'As for the Avʹvim, they had dwelled in settlements as far as Gazʹa until the Caphʹto·rim, who came out from Caphʹtor, annihilated them and settled in their place.)' indicating that the sea people had come by the time of the Exodus/1473BCE.
  2. Jer. 47:4: 'Because the day that is coming will destroy all the Phi·lisʹtines;
    It will cut off from Tyre and Siʹdon every remaining ally.
    For Jehovah will destroy the Phi·lisʹtines,
    Who are the remaining ones from the island of Caphʹtor.'

Jeremiah was prophesying forward after Jerusalem's destruction. Alexander the Great wiped Tyre. It fits that the Philistines were the Sea People because they occupied the shoreline and were probably better at using the Sea's resources than farming. Philistines were also descendants of Canaan, so they evidently intermarried.

I wouldn't put too much by one use of the term 'uncircumcised' in Scripture. It was a fairly general racial slur on the part of Israelites. The prophet who uses that term most of all is Ezekiel, in a prophecy against Egypt in Ezek 32. It was a term for someone who didn't belong, as uncircumcised people were not allowed into Jehovah's Temple.

The patriarchs had good relations with the Philistines, but things got very nasty under Israelite kings.
 
Old 10-07-2021, 06:21 PM   #10268
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Interesting. Like you say, it's a tangent.

I zeroed in on his assigning the Philistines as a "Sea People." He could be half right, I decided. The Philistines were a Canaanite people. But during the times of the patriarchs (1900BCE - 1700BCE) they were ruled by a king (Always called Abimelech) of Gerar (Today's Gaza).

By the time of Samson, however(about 1250BC), the Philistines were ruled by 5 axis lords in 5 separate cities. The Israrelites took that land from them in the 11th century BCE under King David.

It's interesting to hear a historian mention written history on his wish list. That's what the Bible is, although it doesn't get the same respect here.
I am truly glad you found the symposium interesting, business_kid. I don't know you well enough to gauge what you will read, so it's good to see you aren't entirely dogmatic. I do wonder about your assessment as "he could be half right" though. This man has spent a lifetime researching thousands of manuscripts, interacting with hundreds of experts who are from different and overlapping fields of similar rigorous study, yet you weight one translated and edited book with an agenda as so much greater than all other "study", even in non spiritual areas. Fascinating.
 
Old 10-08-2021, 05:20 AM   #10269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
This man has spent a lifetime researching thousands of manuscripts, interacting with hundreds of experts who are from different and overlapping fields of similar rigorous study, yet you weight one translated and edited book with an agenda as so much greater than all other "study", even in non spiritual areas. Fascinating.
Yes, that's faith.

One book is inspired, the others are not. So I have faith in one, but not the others. Let me be clear: when a prophet records a (past/present/future) fact, I take it as fact. I will accept the numbers in armies as estimates, not facts. There are things known as 'absoloute dates' in history, where the date is not disputed. The night of October 4/5, 539BCE is one absolute date - for the fall of Babylon. That was foretold by more than one prophet, notably Jeremiah, and announced on the night by the aged prophet Daniel who read the handwriting on the wall.

What isn't commonly recognised about that is that it was written (like all of Daniel's book) in Aramaic. So it was consonantal - only the consonants were written. Hence the emphasis on reading the writing in Daniel 5:7 Our translator guys looked at the Aramaic, and apparently it also reads "Mina, Mina, Shekel, Half-shekel" - like as if it was about money.

Another fixable historical date was in the Festival of Booths in 66 CE. It's not commonly accepted, but we have the day/year. Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem to put down a rebellion. The Gospels all have warnings to Christians to flee - obviously problematic. Cestius Gallus took the outer city and burnt it, and then undermined the Temple wall before inexplicably giving up and retreating. The Christians fled, while the Jews made him regret his mistake. Josephus mentions the exact day that Gallus came. General Titus returned with Josephus in tow during the Passover (again Josephus mentions the exact day) in 70 CE and destroyed Jerusalem. This time there was no easy way out. All the history is up Here (Wars book 2 from about chapter 15)

The other time we have mentioned in prophecy is Armageddon where the best part of a dozen prophets all have prophecies applying in this generation the majority of which are being fulfilled or have been fulfilled, and yet amazingly people don't want to know.
 
Old 10-08-2021, 02:39 PM   #10270
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Thanks for sharing that link, @business_kid ... that's a very readable translation.

Texts like this one serve to remind us how very brief the Biblical versions of those stories actually are. In this text, you can actually see that "burning bush" in your mind's eye.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-08-2021 at 02:41 PM.
 
Old 10-09-2021, 04:57 AM   #10271
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Thanks for sharing that link, @business_kid ... that's a very readable translation.

Texts like this one serve to remind us how very brief the Biblical versions of those stories actually are. In this text, you can actually see that "burning bush" in your mind's eye.
Whiston's Josephus? Yes, it is good. I would add that as Josephus was living off the Flavians, he couldn't criticise them. So in 70 CE, Titus' men torched the Temple, destroying the genealogical records of the entire Jewish nation. That made it impossible
  • For any man hence to prove himself Christ
  • For any man hence to prove himself king
  • For any man hence to prove himself a priest
  • For any man hence to prove himself a Levite
Now the Jews had been rejected as a nation by Jehovah God, (Matthew 21:42-44 & Matthew 23:38) so that was OK. It headed off future impostors, and shut down the Jewish system of worship. But Josephus, as a priest, Pharisee & natural Jew, might not have seen it that way at the time. Yet he still tried to make Titus look like the good guy in all of that. That's up in the Wars Book VI chapter 4. Sorry, that's a spoiler, I suppose.

My point is, though, that normal histories are propaganda by the winners. The Israelites and their kings, OTOH, get a very bad press from their (Bible writing) prophets. That makes the Bible different. It tells it as it was. The prophets even give themselves a bad press; look at the book of Jonah if you don't believe me. Or King David ignoring his wives to bed Bathsheba on a whim was another example. Then he sent the husband, Uriah, back with a message telling the army commander to kill Uriah! Those low acts were fully and faithfully recorded, as was God's reproof of David.

Curiously, there were copies of the court records of the Jewish kings, and the book of Jashar but they were not preserved. They were never viewed as scripture by Jews or Christians, just history.

Last edited by business_kid; 10-09-2021 at 05:25 AM.
 
Old 10-15-2021, 12:05 PM   #10272
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Gee, this thread has gone quiet lately . . .
 
Old 10-15-2021, 02:13 PM   #10273
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Hasn't it just? Maybe I've been spamming it.

On the sea people, Caphtor, post 10264 and all that: We (Witnesses)are covering the Bible (again) and are around to Joshua's conquest of Israel c. 1473-1467 BCE. On the maps of that time,the Philistine cities of Ashdod, Ekron, & Gath don't exist or are named differently, and Eglon was described as an Amorite city which Joshua captured along with many others.

Apparently there wasn't a clean sweep of the land of Israel because Israel wasn't populous enough, Deuteronomy 7:22, and the Philistines moved in subsequently. It didn't help that the Israelites seemed to see more divinity in a sacred pole or something they knocked up themselves than in the God who was fighting for them. Jehovah was not amused, needless to say.
 
Old 10-19-2021, 07:58 AM   #10274
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This is a question really.

I've been reflecting on how religious differences are a major factor in wars world wide,and I was wondering how that lies in the Eastern European/Baltic States. They seem to have all the ingredients for civil unrest for centuries to come: Major powers slicing up territory, taking chunks off one country and giving them to another; Civil war; independence movements; resource wars. Now they all seem to have different religions as well, as the Orthodox churches have sliced themselves up into smaller & smaller sections, and cut off association with each other.

Given the way everyone from Nicenes & Arians in Europe to Catholic & Protestant or Sunni & Shi'a gets stuck into each other, I just wondered how steeped in blood lust the Orthodox churches were/are.
 
Old 10-19-2021, 08:19 AM   #10275
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They were always very antisemitic. But mostly they ignore other Christian denominations because they think they're the only real Christians anyway. Much like the JWs!

When a Romanov Tsar married a foreign woman, she had to be baptised into the orthodox church and given a new name because they didn't recognise non-orthodox baptisms.
 
  


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