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Old 08-12-2020, 12:01 PM   #9361
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
/yawn. I await your description of how the fact of the Internet in it's current form occurred by random selection.
I'm not sat all sure how to take such a wild (and condescending) statement emotionally, so I won't bother. Instead I'll just assume you're actually serious and somehow interpreted something I wrote to mean that EVERYTHING happens by chance. So let me just state outright that isn't so. That is by far no conclusion of mine and in no way did I even wish to imply such a silly thing. Things can occur via Intelligence and even Instinct and also just by chance.

Intelligence and Instinct as far as we know only exist in living things. Living things are obviously and often profoundly influenced by Chance. Non-living things like pebbles and planets are affected or can be affected by Intelligence, Instinct or Chance but non-living things only affect other things by Chance.

Of course the Prime Mover in the Internet was and is human Intelligence although there was considerable Chance at play as well. That's how Planet Earth has evolved, by the interaction of both.
 
Old 08-13-2020, 06:38 AM   #9362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Of course the Prime Mover in the Internet was and is human Intelligence although there was considerable Chance at play as well. That's how Planet Earth has evolved, by the interaction of both.
I see. As an electronics hardware head, let me assure you that chance is known as a 'fault condition' and once faulty components get replaced, chance is gone. So every piece was designed to leave nothing to chance. Do you agree?
 
Old 08-14-2020, 02:22 PM   #9363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I see. As an electronics hardware head, let me assure you that chance is known as a 'fault condition' and once faulty components get replaced, chance is gone. So every piece was designed to leave nothing to chance. Do you agree?
Almost. Even computers operating with only one of two possibilities, 0 or 1, cannot completely eliminate Chance. They are affected by random events on both the Macro and Micro levels which is why servers generally use ECC RAM while SOHO desktops settle for "good enough". Things happen so fast at such small scales that design must consider the speed of light as a fault limitation for timing and those are just minor examples. On a larger scale tolerances must be configured for use case where for example racing engines must balance precision with durability or they won't get off the starting line. So it is a matter of degree, Chaos, Chance, and Entropy do exist. We just try to keep them at minimum and "at bay".
 
Old 08-15-2020, 09:04 AM   #9364
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No. ECC ram uses 1 bit to check the other 8 (or however many). If the 9th bit is odd whereas it should have been even, an electrical/electronic fault has occurred, the same as with other checksums. There is discretion in electronics (choice of distro, kernel version, Intel/AMD/somebody else). Events have causes. Blind chance is not involved at all.

Blind chance is not the cause of error correction picking up a fault. Component failure is. Let me list the original spec of TTL logic levels. There's so many logic level sets these days, but these I remember
<0.7V = low.
>0.7<1.5V intermediate or undefined
>1.5V High.

In fact most TTL switched around 1.1-1.2V. Failing or overloaded logic has output levels into undefined territory. Some Well designed logic circuits have been around since the early days. Unreliable circuits may look to you like chance, but it isn't. It's all designed to leave nothing to chance.

SOHO desktops? Never heard of them.

Last edited by business_kid; 08-15-2020 at 09:06 AM.
 
Old 08-15-2020, 10:58 AM   #9365
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It's not chaos that it failed...
 
Old 08-15-2020, 11:06 AM   #9366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
SOHO desktops? Never heard of them.
Small Office/Home Office.
 
Old 08-16-2020, 04:31 AM   #9367
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Well business_kid, if you think computers always do the same thing exactly the same way and are unaffected by outside environment and stimulus, not to mention raw, nebulous chance, I think you may be refusing to recognize an important element of physical reality. Certainly any system designed by humans for a specific job is designed to minimize the influence of chance, but they don't deny it even exists or plays a role or backup systems would never have been invented and deployed in every mission critical application that cares to protect itself, which incidentally is why ECC was developed in the first place. If nothing was left to chance, there would be no need for backups or ECC, to name a few.

You might find this both interesting and possibly challenging...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Here's a starter sample that hopefully will draw you into further research and understanding....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia-Chaos Theory
Chaotic behavior exists in many natural systems, including fluid flow, heartbeat irregularities, weather and climate.[12][13][7] It also occurs spontaneously in some systems with artificial components, such as the stock market and road traffic.[14][3] This behavior can be studied through the analysis of a chaotic mathematical model, or through analytical techniques such as recurrence plots and Poincaré maps. Chaos theory has applications in a variety of disciplines, including meteorology,[7] anthropology,[15] sociology, physics,[16] environmental science, computer science, engineering, economics, biology, ecology, pandemic crisis management,[17][18] and philosophy. The theory formed the basis for such fields of study as complex dynamical systems, edge of chaos theory, and self-assembly processes.
...

...or do you view "The Creator" as the ultimate OCD Micro-Manager?
 
Old 08-16-2020, 05:15 AM   #9368
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I feel it is you refusing to recognise reality. Chaos theory relies on starting conditions. The events in mathematics are controlled by forces that can be mathematically modeled. A step voltage on a capacitance of a certain magnitude on one side of a capacitor produces a step voltage of predictable energy on the other end of the same capacitor; whether that is expressed as voltage or current depends on the impedance of the capacitor, and the point in question. All of this can be calculated if you have the information.

What may appear as 'blind chance' but isn't are situations where the equations or formulae can't be applied because too many of the figures are unknown. For instance, broadcasting (and therefore wifi, and electrical interference) reception depends among other things on: aerial length; aerial polarisation; aerial gain; various competing frequencies; geographical path between transmitter and receiver; air humidity between the objects; cloud cover over the broadcast path; at certain frequencies, whether the signal gets trapped above the cloud cover; impedance matching; the presence or not of Faraday shielding in some form; ground capacitance; etc. The point is, if these input values were known, they could be calculated. But they're not. Most are not measurable by techniques available to us today.

Personally I feel you are desperate for some crazy reason to insert blind chance into an area governed by known physical properties and equations where blind chance doesn't fit. Perhaps you'd be a attracted to one of the pagan religions - you can have all the blind chance you want there. They believe in fate, chance, and humouring capricious gods. Sounds like your kind of stuff .
 
Old 08-16-2020, 06:50 AM   #9369
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Perhaps you'd be a attracted to one of the pagan religions - you can have all the blind chance you want there. They believe in fate, chance, and humouring capricious gods..
I think I will post in this thread eventually, after all, to create a sanctified zone where Abrahamic drones cannot taint reality any further.
The abrahamic scourge must be quelled, expect great tribulations in the near future. I am highly trained in this regard. Prepare yourselves.

This is not hyperbole and you will wish you could turn back time to the point before you posted this. That is a promise.

It will take some time for me to adjust my material for this situation, though, so, yeah.
 
Old 08-16-2020, 09:20 AM   #9370
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See business_kid? You are just as incapable of viewing reality without the filter or religious conviction as I am with it. Firstly pagan religions are no more interesting to me than the (slightly) more modern ones as they were ALL born of superstition that I find ignorant and silly... as if we've learned nothing at all in 2000 years. If you doubt that superstition still plagues us to this day, look up how pervasive and resilient "knocking on wood" is, and note that Christians and Muslims alike that still believe in witches and demons or at least (gasp!) Satan, have no problem apparently calling on the magical favor of wood fairies. (and yes, I have done it reflexively, too)

The more important point is not that I think Chance is the Big Kahuna governing events in our Universe. It's just one of many. All of the devices you have recently mentioned are engineered, designed to reduce chance to acceptable levels but they cannot eliminate it altogether. This is why electronic components are manufactured with tolerance levels like plus or minus 10%, 5%, 2% or 1%. Order does exist but so does disorder, and locally neither is a "One Way Street". Order can spontaneously arise from disorder and vice versa.

I invite you to spend some time checking out how Entropy is thought to interact in the Laws of Thermodynamics. Here's a decent overview - http://www.entropylaw.com/

Last edited by enorbet; 08-16-2020 at 09:22 AM.
 
Old 08-17-2020, 06:31 AM   #9371
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You're the one trying to bring religion into electronics. When you don't like me contradicting your erroneous views, you try insulting what you think is my viewpoint.

I therefore take it that you can point to no examples of blind chance in digital Electronics, and we note in passing that discretion, which is an exercise of intelligence, also exists in Design. Moreover, no electronics developed or is developed by blind chance. It has no creative power.

As for your negative comments on religion, largely we are in agreement. There is a very good reason for that. What I regard as True Worship ceased to exist as an entity in the decades following 150 A.D. It wasn't wiped out, but was polluted beyond recognition. Much history was destroyed in subsequent decades and centuries. True Religion was found again by diligent study over decades. I would have to point to history to explain True Worship's demise, and that's no trivial task because false histories have been written by Catholics, and Islam. Mixtures of views are taken up by secular historians. Political bias is everywhere. Jews aren't much use to us, because they were taken out of Jerusalem, spread around the Roman empire like butter to avoid depressing slave prices, and sold as slaves.

It wasn't as much that "Christianity" became the religion of the Roman Empire, rather that Roman politicians & Emperors took over "Christian" concepts as it was merged with the State Religion. From 325 to the end of the Western Empire, we can date a whole group of doctrines that were originally pagan. I won't list them all because I will have flames from all the good "Christians" whose sacred cows I have just gored I will mention one.

When the Apostle Peter took out a sword to resist those arresting Jesus in 33CE, Jesus rebuked him, and healed the injury done. Followers of true worship would not murder, and would remain completely neutral in politics. Peter was the last Christian to resort to violence before 180CE when Christians started joining the Roman Army. It was 25 years killing, etc. the 'etc' could get pretty gruesome. At the eventual defeat of Bar Kokhba Rebellion at Betar in 135 AD, the heads of ~300 children were smashed on a single rock, probably as quickly as the work could be done. Raping, and looting were occasional perks of the job; Another was selling captives as slaves. Absolute loyalty was required to the Legion’s standard, which was an idol, worshipped like a god. Then they got Roman citizenship, and a pension. Look at "good Christians" today. You know 20th century history of blood, war, & horror. No True Worshippers kill anybody.

You seem incapable of realising that what happens in the digital internet is governed by predictable physical and mathematical laws. You said it well: [CODE=enorbet]The more important point is not that I think …[/CODE] on the basis of what do you think it? It makes you distinctly uncomfortable to see blind chance excluded. You try to prove it's an essential part of electronics, and fail. Blind chance is excluded from design, unless the design allows for it. The specifications on TTL voltage levels have 0.0-0.7V as low, and 1.5-5V as high. Variations in input and output impedance are allowed. But testing makes sure they remain within specification.

I won't examine the laws of thermodynamics before you do. Evolution is a most egregious breach of the second law of thermodynamics.

Last edited by business_kid; 08-17-2020 at 06:32 AM.
 
Old 08-17-2020, 11:44 AM   #9372
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This is a broad subject so I probably will have to answer in installments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
You're the one trying to bring religion into electronics. When you don't like me contradicting your erroneous views, you try insulting what you think is my viewpoint.
I have no idea why you would imagine that I would bring religion, which by my definition is Blind Faith, into anything let alone to electronics since I have an EE degree and worked professionally in that field most of my life, including design (I hold a patent), Of greater immediate importance is that if you feel I have insulted you personally I must assure you that was not by design. I have plenty of reasons to believe we would get along well and engage in lively conversation with a minimum of heat were we face to face over coffee. I do realize that in general I have a poor opinion of religion and that could sometimes "leak through" and feel personal, so if that has occurred, I apologize. You seem respectable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I therefore take it that you can point to no examples of blind chance in digital Electronics, and we note in passing that discretion, which is an exercise of intelligence, also exists in Design. Moreover, no electronics developed or is developed by blind chance. It has no creative power.
Unless you see the world as I asked you (and you didn't answer), with The Creator as the ultimate OCD MicroManager that "oversees every sparrow" (we could add viruses and bacteria and a lot more) surely you see that Chance does exist, or do you see God governing the rolls of all dice? Would that include which one of the millions of sperm cells makes it to each egg in everything ever born?

I mentioned "tolerance" that is an attribute to deal with in literally every endeavor and creation. In electronics and manufacturing you grasp the concept of MTBF right? It is accepted that chance dictates that a certain percentage will fall on either side of the median even in everything and especially even in unimaginably tightly controlled processes and tolerances such as the manufacturing of hard drives, for example. The Bell Curve would have had great trouble EVER being invented/recognized if it weren't for Chance.

I am convinced from myriad experiences and research that Chance does exist and plays a part, sometimes weakly, sometimes very powerfully, in all things. If you do not think Chance EVER happens, I don't see how you and I can have a profitable discussion on that matter. Maybe that would mean you do see The Creator as that MicroManager. I wish you would answer that question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
As for your negative comments on religion, largely we are in agreement. There is a very good reason for that. What I regard as True Worship ceased to exist as an entity in the decades following 150 A.D. It wasn't wiped out, but was polluted beyond recognition. Much history was destroyed in subsequent decades and centuries. True Religion was found again by diligent study over decades. I would have to point to history to explain True Worship's demise, and that's no trivial task because false histories have been written by Catholics, and Islam. Mixtures of views are taken up by secular historians. Political bias is everywhere. Jews aren't much use to us, because they were taken out of Jerusalem, spread around the Roman empire like butter to avoid depressing slave prices, and sold as slaves.

It wasn't as much that "Christianity" became the religion of the Roman Empire, rather that Roman politicians & Emperors took over "Christian" concepts as it was merged with the State Religion. From 325 to the end of the Western Empire, we can date a whole group of doctrines that were originally pagan. I won't list them all because I will have flames from all the good "Christians" whose sacred cows I have just gored I will mention one.

When the Apostle Peter took out a sword to resist those arresting Jesus in 33CE, Jesus rebuked him, and healed the injury done. Followers of true worship would not murder, and would remain completely neutral in politics. Peter was the last Christian to resort to violence before 180CE when Christians started joining the Roman Army. It was 25 years killing, etc. the 'etc' could get pretty gruesome. At the eventual defeat of Bar Kokhba Rebellion at Betar in 135 AD, the heads of ~300 children were smashed on a single rock, probably as quickly as the work could be done. Raping, and looting were occasional perks of the job; Another was selling captives as slaves. Absolute loyalty was required to the Legion’s standard, which was an idol, worshipped like a god. Then they got Roman citizenship, and a pension. Look at "good Christians" today. You know 20th century history of blood, war, & horror. No True Worshippers kill anybody.

You seem incapable of realising that what happens in the digital internet is governed by predictable physical and mathematical laws. You said it well: [CODE=enorbet]The more important point is not that I think …[/CODE] on the basis of what do you think it? It makes you distinctly uncomfortable to see blind chance excluded. You try to prove it's an essential part of electronics, and fail. Blind chance is excluded from design, unless the design allows for it. The specifications on TTL voltage levels have 0.0-0.7V as low, and 1.5-5V as high. Variations in input and output impedance are allowed. But testing makes sure they remain within specification.
This above section is one I may have to get back to but for now just one point. "Within specifications"? The very term recognizes that chance exists and is a factor to consider or there would be no reason to enforce tight tolerance control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I won't examine the laws of thermodynamics before you do. Evolution is a most egregious breach of the second law of thermodynamics.
Did you not even explore the entropy law link I provided? It is by no means a definitive or sole source of the issue but the Laws of Thermodynamics originated during what is called Classical Physics which is before Quantum Theory began ummm make waves (sorry... pun intended) but the upshot is that ALL Classical Physics has been revised... not discarded and we can use Newton as a perfect example. Einsteins work demonstrated that Newton missed stuff and only interpreted things within a smaller context. Newton is still in use today within those limitations but for example GPS would not exist without Relativity. Much of the modern world has gone beyond that where even Einstein has limitations especially in the Quantum world. We wouldn't have imagined the Higgs Boson and how important it is to literally everything, at the very least of baryonic matter, and we wouldn't have determined it actually exists without it.

In fact and once again, the very existence of the concept of Sigma recognizes that Chance exists and MUST be considered to determine the likelihood of anything being real and reliable and to what degree. It would be helpful if you looked up what Sigma is and does. You certainly seem to have the intellect to grasp it.
 
Old 08-17-2020, 12:32 PM   #9373
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I think I will post in this thread eventually, after all, to create a sanctified zone where Abrahamic drones cannot taint reality any further.
The abrahamic scourge must be quelled, expect great tribulations in the near future. I am highly trained in this regard. Prepare yourselves.

This is not hyperbole and you will wish you could turn back time to the point before you posted this. That is a promise.

It will take some time for me to adjust my material for this situation, though, so, yeah.
Actually, I will have to bear some shame now and break that promise for the time being.

After getting an actual good night of sleep, my anger has subsided.
Granted, I still have literal folders full of material, but I also have to admit that my participation would have been 85% angry self enjoyment.

This is also partly due to me not only believing, but also knowing that, especially online 'debates' with Abrahamic cultists are quite fruitless, because they themselves, especially Christians, bullshit one another ceaselessly and mercilessly, and are therefore on topics like theology and philosophy almost fully exorcised of any sort of sense of sincerity which is replaced by profound and malignant pilpul and deceit (since that is the only way denominations can struggle for 'existence' amongst one another).

So while the things I would (and still might bring later, albeit with less wrath) have brought to the table would not only be quite factual (at least on Germanic heathenry) but also quite 'argumentively choking' (I have long long since a long time realized that in order to have any sort of interaction with these kind of things is to trim down as many rabbitholes and tangents as possible the wretched Abrahamics leap onto with a readiness that makes gunshots blush, and boiling things down to utterly simplistic but sound principles brings all further 'discussion' (aka Abrahamic deceit and guile) to a halt and the thread would be severely crippled if not dying.)

Y'all can, for the time being laugh at me for 'chickening out', instead.
(which is not what I'm doing but... you know. Since I'm actually a good guy, having some sort of diplomacy is nice.)

Edit2:
After thinking about this post some more, I have to correct myself. I am not a good guy for leaving, the right thing to do would truly to stamp down on the deceit, but I would just get angry at any potential reply that, for example, would downplay the sheer and utter objective evil of Abrahamic child mutilation and co. (and that's just one thing...)

And I'm not in the mood for that, I should be, this should be fought tooth and nail and with the burning contempt it deserves, but I don't want to feel *that* kind of anger.
Even for 'fun'.

The kind of anger I'd feel for people who stomp on puppies and rabbits with stiletto heels, the people who hit dogs with shovels. I have to let these individuals go through me as a phenomenon that exists, but without being in a constant state of vile disgust.

And there is to me nothing more loathsome than Abrahamic barbarism, to the extent where I would STRONGLY claim that any positive effect of any member of any of the vile cults might have produced, like something scientific or technical, would not ever be as needed, ever as 'soothing' or uplifting than a world without any of these cults.
(And the fact that this makes things just more tragic, that otherwise good people would become so exorcised and blind to objective evil...is stomach turning.)

In other words, whatever good humans under Abrahamic have done, would pale in comparison, become insignificant in comparison to a world where it never existed.
Even if tech levels were lower.

I really, really should just do it, again, I'm not chickening out, simply because I'd win if I wanted to wade through the horseshit.
I'm being deplorable scum myself, instead, for wanting to do something else.
My metaphorical bloodlust to see this vile beast eviscerated has lessened with sleep, it's awful.
But at the same time, it's also going to not fill me with as much loathing since I can just ignore this thread again, for a time.

Really, really shouldn't though. This kind of thing deserves no clemency and I am loathsome for giving it that.

If I look crazy for saying all that, then your moral fiber is nonexistent, and I should feel extra bad for not coming back immediately to tell you, in depth, why.

Last edited by Geist; 08-17-2020 at 02:41 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2020, 06:26 PM   #9374
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Geist you certainly have the right of choice to do whatever you decide is best but all I see is diatribe against Abrahamic Religion. Should I interpret that as you being against Religion in general or just Abrahamic versions? So first, what are you for?
 
Old 08-18-2020, 02:35 AM   #9375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
From 325 to the end of the Western Empire, we can date a whole group of doctrines that were originally pagan.
We can see the opposite movement as well: Today's Norse paganism usually refers to the Edda which was written with the Christian duality in mind, including an "allfather" (Odin) and "good vs. evil" (æsir and vanir vs. jötunn). None of those existed in Heathen times, and still the reenactment religions consider it true.
 
  


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