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Old 12-31-2017, 11:59 AM   #8101
jsbjsb001
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I can't but help point it out, but this thread has now become evil; given that the "Voters" for the poll at the top of this thread, at the time of this post, now states: "Voters: 666. You have already voted on this poll"

I'm sorry but I thought that was very on-topic.

(and I think it's my first post for 2018 -- looks like a bad start for the year...)

I have no opinion about the current discussion but...
 
Old 12-31-2017, 02:05 PM   #8102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
We owe India two great mathematical innovations: the invention of zero and the so-called Arabic numbers. But India produced no science because Indian philosophy held this world to be illusory and therefore not worth investigating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
Partly true.
1. The zero was invented by Greek astronomers and popularised by the Indians.

2. Not all Indian philosophers have held the world to be illusory: Madhva didn't.
That's why in cases like these, i recommend a full quote of source of answer.
 
Old 12-31-2017, 02:22 PM   #8103
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hate to be that guy, but the ancient Chinese, in particular Taoists, used 0 (zero) and even negative numbers long before India, Greece and others. Its one of the many inventions they created yet modern history relegates to other cultures/countries.

You can also thank them (Taoists) for the computer you are using since the binary code was based on the binary code of the Taoist I-Ching.
 
Old 12-31-2017, 02:46 PM   #8104
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Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
hate to be that guy, but the ancient Chinese, in particular Taoists, used 0 (zero) and even negative numbers long before India, Greece and others. Its one of the many inventions they created yet modern history relegates to other cultures/countries.

You can also thank them (Taoists) for the computer you are using since the binary code was based on the binary code of the Taoist I-Ching.

Who hearded says about the Tao of Programming?


What programmers says about the Tao of Programming?

References:

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmaCQ5rcvfwhVNm...KePMxiyjh1Yh31

http://canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html

Last edited by pompous ninja; 12-31-2017 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old 01-01-2018, 02:52 AM   #8105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Was he in fact a scientist? I gather he was more of an aristotelian philosopher.
Consider this:
Quote:
n the Al-Burhan (On Demonstration) section of the book, Avicenna discussed the philosophy of science and described an early scientific method of inquiry. He discusses Aristotle's Posterior Analytics and significantly diverged from it on several points. Avicenna discussed the issue of a proper methodology for scientific inquiry and the question of "How does one acquire the first principles of a science?" He asked how a scientist would arrive at "the initial axioms or hypotheses of a deductive science without inferring them from some more basic premises?" He explains that the ideal situation is when one grasps that a "relation holds between the terms, which would allow for absolute, universal certainty." Avicenna then adds two further methods for arriving at the first principles: the ancient Aristotelian method of induction (istiqra), and the method of examination and experimentation (tajriba). Avicenna criticized Aristotelian induction, arguing that "it does not lead to the absolute, universal, and certain premises that it purports to provide." In its place, he develops a "method of experimentation as a means for scientific inquiry."[
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bo...phy_of_science

jdk
 
Old 01-02-2018, 07:35 PM   #8106
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Just FTR I didn't "pursue the point" because of the larger point that most Religion, at least those with ancient roots, began attempting to describe Nature as well as the "Super-Natural", some even doing creditable work for a time, and all have evolved to limit purvey more and more to the so-called "supernatural" since nothing can compete with The Scientific Method for discovering and understanding Nature. Period. QED. End of Story.... or by what mechanism and over what period of time would any religion ever have resulted in discovering the Higgs Boson or about 95% of what all of us utilize every minute of every day?
 
Old 01-03-2018, 12:14 PM   #8107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
by what mechanism and over what period of time would any religion ever have resulted in discovering the Higgs Boson?
OMG! How ever could I survive without the Higgs Boson? All hail the blessed physicists who have preserved me from such a fate!
 
Old 01-04-2018, 02:17 AM   #8108
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
OMG! How ever could I survive without the Higgs Boson? All hail the blessed physicists who have preserved me from such a fate!
It would be great if your comment above was all in fun because of the esoteric nature of Particle Physics, but then again it's quite OK if you simply care little or nothing for deep level information on how the Universe works at fundamental levels.

I chose the Higgs exactly because it is so esoteric, so tiny, so energetic, and so important to the existence of... well, everything. Being that esoteric, tiny, energetic and incredibly difficult to do, made it a reductio ad absurdum argument since it has been a very long time since any major religion embarked on or helped fund any major scientific experimentation, let alone one on the scale of the Large Hadron Collider. The rest, the "95% of what all of us utilize every minute of every day" brings us back to the practical applications of what was once Deep Science. An example of this can be heard often with the all too common argument "If we can put a man on the Moon why can't we <insert some more down-to-Earth practical endeavor>", since many view Space Travel as highly impractical while others actually consider it a massive waste of taxpayer's dollars.

Even forgetting the probabilities that some future generation may actually need to leave Earth or risk extinction, the facts are though that without the push to go to the Moon, this world would be a very different place right now. It does seem often accurate that "necessity is the Mother of invention" and without the very real and compelling needs to

1) shrink the size and power requirements of all manner of devices, especially those powered by electricity
2) improve the size and power of computing systems for automated monitoring and guidance
3) develop and evolve better, faster communications systems
4) develop health testing and monitoring systems
5) improve the availability and storage life of foodstuffs, including clean water
6) develop fabrics, fasteners and manufacturing methods to make suits safe for Space and affordable within the budget
and about 55 other areas of requirements to handle such a massive project....

Well I doubt I need to list all the things that would not exist today that have enriched and saved lives all over the planet had these needs not existed due to lack of interest.

There is an exemplary dialogue on this subject where one asks "Of what practical use is theoretical or exploratory Science?" and he is answered "Of what practical use is a Human Embryo?" This is especially poignant when one considers that a single child born in 2013 will cost his/her parents around a quarter million dollars to raise to age 18, which is a sum vastly higher in proportion to most parents income compared to the cost of the Apollo Project to the US Budget. The LHC is even a smaller proportion, as was the SSC which was abandoned by the US in 1983 basically abandoning and defaulting all Particle Physics research to Europe, a reverse brain-drain from past glories.

So if instead of "just a friendly jab" or lack of interest your comment was a bit of that "gimme that ole time religion" you are quite welcome to it even though much of what you use daily, even this Forum, is a result of Science. I'd say that would be a great example of Cognitive Dissonance approaching that of The Ostrich. It is, after all, entirely up to you to decide what is actually important to you and at what cost.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-04-2018 at 02:20 AM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 12:36 PM   #8109
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It's ironic that you mention the US space program in the same post as "develop[ing] health testing and monitoring systems". You're the ones with the space program, we're the ones with the health care.
https://www.voanews.com/a/american-l...s/3628002.html

I'm not arguing for a return to the stone age, but a lot of pure science research is just to satisfy the curiosity of those that do it. Fields like radio telescopy and particle physics do not have benefits for the public who are conned into paying for them.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 02:39 PM   #8110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
End of Story.... or by what mechanism and over what period of time would any religion ever have resulted in discovering the Higgs Boson or about 95% of what all of us utilize every minute of every day?
what a thoroughly ignorant question
the Moslims provided a treasure trove of science and maths when spain was invaded wayback in the middle ages, pretty much sparked the renaissance
and here is a list of scientists today who actually believe in creation
https://creation.com/creation-scientists
and the Moslems today are furiosly researching nuclear science in places like Iran
and Israel ( the Jewish state ) is a world leader in many sciences
 
Old 01-04-2018, 05:49 PM   #8111
enorbet
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Re: my sentence quoted - Originally Posted by enorbet -
"End of Story.... or by what mechanism and over what period of time would any religion ever have resulted in discovering the Higgs Boson or about 95% of what all of us utilize every minute of every day?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by floppywhopper View Post
what a thoroughly ignorant question
the Moslims provided a treasure trove of science and maths when spain was invaded wayback in the middle ages, pretty much sparked the renaissance
and here is a list of scientists today who actually believe in creation
https://creation.com/creation-scientists
and the Moslems today are furiosly researching nuclear science in places like Iran
and Israel ( the Jewish state ) is a world leader in many sciences
What a thoroughly misunderstood (and personally egregious) leap you made. I didn't say religious people don't work in Science. Some do. However there are extremely few actual Scientists who consider any Bible as literal, if that's what you mean by believing in creation. If you mean some scientists accept the possibility that our Universe was designed and created by some Grand Intelligence then that is very different. It is a possibility since the subject defies certainty as it requires something OUTSIDE the known Universe and that by definition remains Unknowable. It's possible but it is and will always be mere speculation.

The fact remains, unless you or someone else can disprove it, that Nature as described in any bible and interpreted by it's proponents, is always dogmatic and resistant to refinement, let alone disproof, which is exactly why Galileo was arrested way back then, and Darwin and LeMatres (to name just two) who were in fact religious men still suffer disfavor and rejection of proven scientific theory by Fundamentalists even today, hundred(s) of years later. I find it utterly ridiculous, not that men who embraced spirituality or even religion, but that Clerics, institutions of Religion, would have ever exerted the effort, the money or the open mindedness to produce 95% of what makes modern life modern. My statements and question stand but you are welcome to try to produce any specific evidence to the contrary. That States which encompass religious people are involved in Science proves nothing, since the religions were not the driving force. Historically Religion suppresses anything conflicting with "The Story". So try again. Have at it. Prove me "ignorant".

Last edited by enorbet; 01-04-2018 at 05:54 PM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 06:08 PM   #8112
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
It's ironic that you mention the US space program in the same post as "develop[ing] health testing and monitoring systems". You're the ones with the space program, we're the ones with the health care.
https://www.voanews.com/a/american-l...s/3628002.html

I'm not arguing for a return to the stone age, but a lot of pure science research is just to satisfy the curiosity of those that do it. Fields like radio telescopy and particle physics do not have benefits for the public who are conned into paying for them.
Did you really mean to equate the US Space program, which BTW has always embraced global cooperation, with politics? How health care is funded, not to mention people's chosen diets affecting individual health, has nothing to do with how the practice of medicine was advanced by studies required to keep astronauts alive and healthy as well as to test, evaluate, and qualify those healthy enough and cull those not healthy enough. The same is true of the multitude of advances in a wide number of fields that now, in varying degrees, benefits All Mankind. The fact remains that what was pure science "yesterday" becomes practical applied science "today". One example - GPS, and numerous other calculating devices and methods, would not exist were it not for Einstein's "impractical" theories of Relativity.

I know it is popular for the US to be vilified, and not without some deserved provocation (true of all nations, btw), but this thread is about Religion or the lack of it, not political bandwagons or scapegoats.
 
  


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