The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by jdkaye There are people who think that if a black cat crosses your path you will have bad luck. Is that important to you?

No, but it's important to those people. Isn't it obvious why?

Originally Posted by ntubski No, but it's important to those people. Isn't it obvious why?

Of course it is. But so what?
jdk

Originally Posted by jdkaye Of course it is. But so what?

So likewise, it should be fairly obvious why theists care about god(s) existence.

That is because some folks are more prone to hypoxia than others. It causes them to see things differently.

https://books.google.com/books?id=l1...elated+hypoxia

Originally Posted by ntubski So likewise, it should be fairly obvious why theists care about god(s) existence.

That makes no sense. The only god they would believe in (or perhaps even recognise as such) would be one that agrees with them. For theists of any sort, god is merely the embodiment of their own peculiar moral system. Try this thought experiment:
Our theists (of the christian variety) is by the side of a like. A robbed figure with long hair and a beard walks on water, turns loaves into fishes and fishes into loaves and a variety of other miracles. It approaches our believer, a homophobe who happens to believe that god hates gays, and says, "actually, I don't hate gays at all. they are perfectly nice people and every aspect of their behaviour is well within my moral code." How does our believer react? It's obvious. The homophobe rejects this so-called god as an imposter, clearly sent by the devil as a test of faith. Clearly the "true god" agrees with the homophobes position on homosexuality.

In sum, the true miracle is that every one who believes in god believes in a god that shares their values. I have never met anyone in my life with whom I share every moral position. I'm in general agreement on many things with my friends but never with everything.

Yes, theists care about god's existence. That's why they're "theists". An apatheist, such as me, doesn't. I hope that's clear.
jdk

Originally Posted by jdkaye That makes no sense. The only god they would believe in (or perhaps even recognise as such) would be one that agrees with them. For theists of any sort, god is merely the embodiment of their own peculiar moral system.

I don't understand why you say "merely". Obviously the existence of their moral system is important to them, and an entity that embodies it even more so.

Originally Posted by jdkaye Our theists (of the christian variety) is by the side of a like. A robbed figure with long hair and a beard walks on water, turns loaves into fishes and fishes into loaves and a variety of other miracles. It approaches our believer, a homophobe who happens to believe that god hates gays, and says, "actually, I don't hate gays at all. they are perfectly nice people and every aspect of their behaviour is well within my moral code." How does our believer react? It's obvious. The homophobe rejects this so-called god as an imposter, clearly sent by the devil as a test of faith.

I'm not sure it's so obvious; some would reject, others might have a spiritual crisis and reevaluate their beliefs.

Originally Posted by jdkaye Yes, theists care about god's existence. That's why they're "theists". An apatheist, such as me, doesn't. I hope that's clear.

Yes, quite clear.

If something is important to me I must decide do I need it? But, that's just me.

Originally Posted by ntubski I don't understand why you say "merely". Obviously the existence of their moral system is important to them, and an entity that embodies it even more so.

Indeed, as my moral system is important to me. The differences is I don't use/need a "god" merely to give the stamp of authority on my system. It stands or falls on its own merits.

I'm not sure it's so obvious; some would reject, others might have a spiritual crisis and reevaluate their beliefs.

Given the absence of any operational definition of god, i.e. how do you distinguish a god from an evil or neutral supernatural entity posing as a god. If you go down that road then you will quickly encounter circularity. The purpose of "god" is simply to give the stamp of authority to your own personal moral system.

Yes, quite clear.

Thanks, you had me worried.
jdk

Originally Posted by jdkaye Sorry enorbet, but you've lost me there. What does the existence/non-existence of some god object have to do with people doing nasty things? The hustler may or may not believe there is a god or gods but that is totally independent of whether god does indeed exist or not (if that even has a meaning). The victim certainly has to believe that there is a god or the scam won't work. A consumer may believe that homoeopathy is effective but that is totally independent of whether or not it really is effective. Belief in something is not evidence of its existence. jdk

I frankly don't care whether God exists or not since it is impossible to determine if such a creature exists or not by any logical means. It is strictly a matter of faith. I do care that others have such Faith insofar that the coexistence of evangelism has such high incidence and along with it so often comes Authoritarianism, repression and oppression that it is worthy of concern. There is no difference between the excuse of "The devil made me do it" and "God so commanded".

I further cannot understand why you would seek to school me on the ridiculous notion that perception is reality. I trust in the scientific method. There is no room for faith in my life. I am part of the Universe that can and does reflect on itself but I am aware of the many orders of magnitude of difference in spacetime between myself and the whole. It is truly a marvel that humans are capable of understanding as much as we do even though it is pitiful little.

Whether or not a God exists, as far as I can discern, doesn't impact my life while whether or not the ultimate rationalization of Religion exists most assuredly does impact my life in both a kinetic and potential ways. You seem to want to limit discussion to whether or not God exists if I understand you correctly and I don't see this thread as that limited. God is "up there". Religion is "down here". Certainly nastiness doesn't only come in the guise of Religion, but History shows it is a very important player.

A much simpler poll.

Believe in God.

Do not.

A person can't partially steal. :-)

There is no middle ground.

Originally Posted by jdkaye Given the absence of any operational definition of god, i.e. how do you distinguish a god from an evil or neutral supernatural entity posing as a god. If you go down that road then you will quickly encounter circularity.

I can see how logically there is circularity, but I think actual humans would mainly use intuition/gut feelings to decide, so it's not quite circular in practice.

Reminds me a bit of smbc's biological solution to the liar's paradox

Originally Posted by Fixit7 Believe in God. Do not. There is no middle ground.

What about those who claim they're not sure/don't know?

Originally Posted by enorbet I frankly don't care whether God exists or not since it is impossible to determine if such a creature exists or not by any logical means. It is strictly a matter of faith. I do care that others have such Faith insofar that the coexistence of evangelism has such high incidence and along with it so often comes Authoritarianism, repression and oppression that it is worthy of concern. There is no difference between the excuse of "The devil made me do it" and "God so commanded". I further cannot understand why you would seek to school me on the ridiculous notion that perception is reality. I trust in the scientific method. There is no room for faith in my life. I am part of the Universe that can and does reflect on itself but I am aware of the many orders of magnitude of difference in spacetime between myself and the whole. It is truly a marvel that humans are capable of understanding as much as we do even though it is pitiful little. Whether or not a God exists, as far as I can discern, doesn't impact my life while whether or not the ultimate rationalization of Religion exists most assuredly does impact my life in both a kinetic and potential ways. You seem to want to limit discussion to whether or not God exists if I understand you correctly and I don't see this thread as that limited. God is "up there". Religion is "down here". Certainly nastiness doesn't only come in the guise of Religion, but History shows it is a very important player.

So it seems we are in agreement. I am an apatheist which is to say I don't care whether god/gods exist(s) or not. I am also an ignostic meaning that that very question has no meaning.
jdk

There is no middle ground.

quote from one christian on this forum to a post to me.

But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!

What about those who claim they're not sure/don't know?

Too give you a idea. I have broad shoulders and a thick skin.
So like a grown-up.
I consider the source.
The source has very little substance to it.

I know another christian member who has posted in this thread who has some extremist outlooks on gay marriage and the rights of gays in the USA. Basically that they are all born wrong and are sinners and the law
should not treat them as equals to me and my wife when it comes to health care and property rights.

My outlook on all of this.
There are older gods with more history and bigger monuments dedicated to them around the word. From one side of the world to the other.

They fell by the wayside eventually. These things will pass also. I hope.
Bigots who profess to believe in Jesus can be soooooooo tiring. They can be hateful bunch also.
Not worth knowing really.
Just KKK dudes without the hoods.
The new KKK don't wear hoods any more.

Edit: I think the latest fashion is ski masks.

I do think that you over-simplify ... even mock ... people who choose to espouse a religion, e.g. merely because you don't.

What we all must be exceptionally aware of is: "God thinks like I do. God agrees with me when I think what I do." Or, in the opposite side of the identical coin: "You're ignorant for thinking about your god, because I don't, and that obviously means that I am right" ...

I submit that neither party really has any business saying that, especially not pounding his fellow-man over the head with it. When we do that, we are, so to speak, "sinning against our brother," or simply being an insufferable ...



The bottom line is: we both want to "be right." Or, to put it another way, we want there to be an absolute, and we specifically want to be in possession of it. Neither religion nor science is ever going to do that, no matter how hard we try. (I do think that many people are positively religious in their embracement of "science," demanding that "science" deliver far more certainty than it actually can.)

"The Big Bang" ... guess what ... that is: a creation myth! (And an extremely improbable one, if you were to ask me...) And, yet, it's a totally-human thing that we would want to see it as "fact." That we would drive a mathematical equation to its point of singularity, and refuse to stop until we got there.

And, I think that we all, also, need to keep in mind that this is human nature. It's not right, and it's not wrong. We're all "three blind men and an elephant." We will never possess the capacity to understand all that we so want to "know." But, we shall never, ever stop trying. Therefore, let's lay off on the bludgeons.

In my opinion "god" is the "devil," yin and yang; you can't have "good" without "evil" until all are ev∞lved... and, there's nothing to know.