The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by reed9 Unsupported assertions are neither scientific nor constitute proof. I can engage in this kind of reasoning too. 1. God is light. 2. I can switch light on and off with a switch. 3. I can turn God off. 4. I am more powerful than God. Tada. Proof of my omnipotence. I should have been a theologian.

Excellent, I'm going to get me one of those "Clapper" light control things, and have god appear and disappear at my command... Clap on, clap off, the Clapper...

There was a darkness and God called the electrician who said, "Let there be light."

Originally Posted by reed9 In some regards, I respect the position of the dogmatic, Bible-as-the-literal-word-of-God folks more. You still end up picking and choosing a little, since no one follows every single tenet set down in the Bible, and there's a lot of differing opinions on interpretation, but at least they're trying to be consistent. Also, it's so much easier to refute that brand of Christianity, since it so obviously contradicts reality, and it espouses a morality that many if not most people would balk at following directly. And I use the term "morality" loosely, since it is anything but moral...

It amuses me mightily that people look at "a book" and accept that it is "the literal Word of God," (a) without knowing a single thing about where and how it actually came to be in their hands in its present-day form; and (b) seeming to assume that God has not spoken a single word since.

Trust me on this: go find the book, The History of Christianity. Read it. Find various books such as The Quest for the Historical Jesus, and The Mythmaker, and read them, too. If you're going to say that you believe a book, and most especially if you call it "the literal Word of God," you need to know with eyes wide open precisely how this book came into your hands and precisely why it contains the material that it does. (Believe me on this: these were entirely human decisions.)

Aside from the fact that it happens to be (to me, at least) utterly fascinating, there is also a purely practical element. "If you are going to choose to anchor your entire life on something, this decision of course being your sovereign personal prerogative, it behooves you to thoroughly understand precisely how that thing is constructed." If you don't know about the politics of the rapidly fading Roman empire; if you've never heard of Constantine or Augustine ... heck, if you've never actually read this WikiPedia article from stem to stern ... then the frank truth is that you actually know absolutely squat about this chosen "cornerstone of your entire life."

If you're holding onto something just because it was what was taught you beginning at approximately age three, then sooner or later you're in for a rather huge earthquake, and when it happens you've built your house on the shifting sand.

I'm not going to tell you what your conclusions should be. I'm not going to say that you're right or you're wrong. I'll tell you that I am a Christian who reads a book but doesn't venerate it, and if you tell me I'm doomed to Hell I'll calmly tell you that that's between me and my God. If worst comes to worst and you're right and I'm wrong, goody for you. However, just remember that Heaven is powered by steam and that I'm the one who's keeping you toasty during your singing lessons.

(duplicate omitted)

Originally Posted by desertranger There was a darkness and God called the electrician who said, "Let there be light."

... and on the Seventh day, God said, "the Devil made me do it."

... and on the Eighth day, the Devil invented: chiggers, mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, scorpions, and politics.

I sold my soul to the Devil, but he brought it back after a couple of days and asked for a refund.

perhaps because he found unSpawn to be a better candidate.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs It amuses me mightily that people look at "a book" and accept that it is "the literal Word of God," (a) without knowing a single thing about where and how it actually came to be in their hands in its present-day form; and (b) seeming to assume that God has not spoken a single word since.

Which I agree with, but how to do you get from this to being a Christian? Once you "understand precisely how that thing is constructed", how can you believe in a Christian god at all? Or, as you look at the history of other religions, any of them? I can get maybe being a Deist, but the rest escapes me.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul perhaps because he found unSpawn to be a better candidate.

Careful! Remember the 11th Commandment (unfortunately missing from most published editions of the Bible):
Thou shalt not mock the Moderators.

That is applied only when you are referring to onebuck

And remember the 12th Commandment:
Thou shalt not derail a thread.

Originally Posted by brianL And remember the 12th Commandment: Thou shalt not derail a thread.

How do you derail a train wreck?

Originally Posted by kostya The only direct source about Christ is the Bible

Completely, utterly wrong. Besides the problem with what would be a 'direct souce', there are literally hundreds of books associated with the bible that have been removed. Most of them are old testament, but theres more than a few that are new testament.

You can see a list of books mentioned in the old testament but 'lost' here-

http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks1.htm

Heres "A Partial List" of "Books Removed From, Or Associated With, The Bible"-

http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks3.htm

Originally Posted by kostya that Christ DID believe in what Genesis says: (Matthew 19:4,5): This is a united reference to Genesis 1:27 and 2:23, which Jesus, therefore, believed to be true. And according to the later explanations, not only "believed to be true", but was God's assistant in the work of Creation (Collossians 1:17).

So, you're using matthew to 'prove' that jesus believed what genesis says? More circular logic, again you are saying that 'the bible proves the bible'.

Originally Posted by reed9 Which I agree with, but how to do you get from this to being a Christian? Once you "understand precisely how that thing is constructed", how can you believe in a Christian god at all? Or, as you look at the history of other religions, any of them? I can get maybe being a Deist, but the rest escapes me.

As far as christiany goes, its not that hard actually.

You can take various positions as to why the bible (either in part or in full) can be considered suspect, or even outiright lies, but still beleive that jesus was in some way speaking for god/acting on gods behalf/etc..

As far as other religions go, its also fairly easy- you just have to believe that 'this is right', but its been twisted/debased by political/ecconomic power.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs However, just remember that Heaven is powered by steam and that I'm the one who's keeping you toasty during your singing lessons.

The 13th chorus of drunken devils have signing lessons too, 'Roll Out The Barrel' is a favourite. I'd rather take them over the 7th choir of hevenly angels singing 'hallelujah' or the purgatory performers doing 'mmmm mmmmm mmmm mmmm, by the crash test dummies'.

BTW, I agree with your position sundialsvcs (though thats prety obvious for people who have been reading this....er...thread). On this sort of thread, its potentially opening yourself up to attack from both sides, so kudos for that post. Even though I'm not a christian I think its good that somebody who is has openly stated what you did.

Originally Posted by cascade9 there are literally hundreds of books associated with the bible that have been removed...but theres more than a few that are new testament.

The Gnostic gospels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Gospels

Originally Posted by cascade9 As far as christiany goes, its not that hard actually. You can take various positions as to why the bible (either in part or in full) can be considered suspect, or even outiright lies, but still beleive that jesus was in some way speaking for god/acting on gods behalf/etc.. As far as other religions go, its also fairly easy- you just have to believe that 'this is right', but its been twisted/debased by political/ecconomic power.

My question goes beyond what is written in various holy books. With Christianity, for example, I assume that understanding precisely how the thing was constructed includes understanding the prescursors to Christian mythology in the mystery cults of the time, Zoroastriasism, Mithraism, and others, understanding the relationship of the Jesus myth with other hero myths, and so on.

BTW, I agree with your position sundialsvcs (though thats prety obvious for people who have been reading this....er...thread). On this sort of thread, its potentially opening yourself up to attack from both sides, so kudos for that post. Even though I'm not a christian I think its good that somebody who is has openly stated what you did.

His posts have been thoughtful and informative, so I hope while I or others might question some positions, we do not "attack" them.