The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by hazel What I mean is that an evolutionary derived instinctive moral sense only has authority for me as long as I don't know that it arose merely as a byproduct of evolution. Once I learn that, I no longer have any reason to follow it when it goes against my immediate self interest.

I'm not sure why reason matters here. You can't just decide to turn off feelings based on reasoning. So when you ask

Originally Posted by hazel I don't do that because I know it would be wrong, but where does that idea come from? If you answer that it is engrained into me by evolution, that would certainly explain why I feel the way I do, but still, why should I not override that feeling whenever it is in my self-interest to do so?

Why isn't the answer just:

Originally Posted by hazel no normal person feels comfortable going against [that instinctive moral sense]

Intellectual knowledge about the origins won't change your actual feelings.

Originally Posted by enorbet That answer seems self-evident to me considering all lifeforms have rules that govern actions and the only "final authority" is Life and Death.{...}

But this logic is flawed IF there is Deity behind Evolution and Aliens..use common sense people. Who created those rules? Newton law also says nothing comes from nothing and everything changes into everything. If there is Creator for lifeforms and God for Earth then this being knew|knows better and have more than 5 senses therefore Scientology IS religion based on 5 senses. Religion is simply based on other stuff before observed science(therefore science cannot replace religion 100%). Again final authority is Truth not L&D or BIASed opinion arguments!

Originally Posted by Arcane But this logic is flawed IF there is Deity behind Evolution and Aliens..use common sense people. Who created those rules? Newton law also says nothing comes from nothing and everything changes into everything. If there is Creator for lifeforms and God for Earth then this being knew|knows better and have more than 5 senses therefore Scientology IS religion based on 5 senses. Religion is simply based on other stuff before observed science(therefore science cannot replace religion 100%). Again final authority is Truth not L&D or BIASed opinion arguments!

It is a non sequitur to propose that logic is flawed when your opposing argument is by nature illogical. If you have Faith that's fine but it is NOT Logic. There is ZERO evidence to support a Creator by definition since a Creator must pre-exist what is created therefore being outside of the thing created. No information passes through that barrier. This is exactly why it is called "Faith" as opposed to "Reason".

Newton never said "everything changes into everything". He did propose that something can't come from nothing but since that was postulated prior to Quantum Mechanics the definition of "nothing" has changed dramatically since Newton's time. Technically he is still correct but what we viewed then as "nothing" on extremely small scales is apparently not actually empty but filled with energy fields from which particles suddenly appear and equally suddenly disappear.

Scientology? Really? That is pure "woo", fabricated bunk speculation at best. I don't see how any of it's true tenets even qualifies it as Religion. It's primarily just a convenient tax dodge. ""Based on other stuff"? Yeah it sure is! Greed, Wealth and Power.

What does it matter if Science can replace Religion 100%? As long as religion no longer has the power to "purge" scientists and scientists could care less, there is no serious conflict with the possible exception of pedagogy. If you have personal spiritual beliefs that don't threaten others why should anyone care or be concerned about that. It's YOUR personal business.

This last concept, "Final Authority = Truth", is literally circular logic of the worst kind where the conclusion is part of the premise. It is absolutely illogical. You have the right and the option to be illogical if that is your personal choice but just don't try to pawn that off as Logic because by definition it is not. The first "truth" comes from being honest with one's self. "A rose by any other name....". Giving something a label it doesn't fit or earn is a mistake and often a deliberate mistake like calling a phony piece of paper the "Deed to Manhattan". It's a con job.

Originally Posted by enorbet What does it matter if Science can replace Religion 100%? As long as religion no longer has the power to "purge" scientists and scientists could care less, there is no serious conflict with the possible exception of pedagogy. If you have personal spiritual beliefs that don't threaten others why should anyone care or be concerned about that. It's YOUR personal business.

It matters a lot if you believe you have a soul. Do you have a soul, enorbet? Or are you without a soul?

Originally Posted by enorbet This last concept, "Final Authority = Truth", is literally circular logic of the worst kind where the conclusion is part of the premise. It is absolutely illogical. You have the right and the option to be illogical if that is your personal choice but just don't try to pawn thYou already said I was devious.at off as Logic because by definition it is not. The first "truth" comes from being honest with one's self. "A rose by any other name....". Giving something a label it doesn't fit or earn is a mistake and often a deliberate mistake like calling a phony piece of paper the "Deed to Manhattan". It's a con job.

Ever tried prayer? It can do wonders, but you have to have Faith. But you don't have Faith, do you enorbet... You're on your own... I feel sorry for you in a way, but not that much. Reap what you sow.


I believe in God and the Devil without a scintilla of doubt. God has watched over and protected me my entire life. The Devil at my right side waiting for the chance to influence me.

I talk to God, He never answers me but I know He listens. I don't always get what I want but I get what I need. Sometime He gives me what I want to show me it was not needed, so I have Faith in Him to know what's best. But you don't have Faith, do you enorbet...

I never talk to the Devil, but if He talks I listen. Sometime it's the Devils work I'm intent on and God would have no part in facilitating that. The Devil might though. I wouldn't explain it for you if asked. It's outside the realm of logic so you would poo-poo it anyway, to your detriment.


I will go out of my way to help someone if I can, just because I can. It doesn't always work out, then it's Devil's Food Cake that's called for. At my discretion.

I was sitting outside my building at 3:50am when I saw a guy walking up the street. He came right over to where I was sitting and asked where my bike was so I knew he had been there before since that's another guy. My first thought was he might be a crackhead, which would not be that unusual, but he was mild mannered and soft-spoken. He sized me up before he sat down. He was what I considered "lost in thought" talking about past events and a little out there but I did not feel him a physical threat.

He said he was walking home and had 8 miles to go, all but a few blocks down a two-lane highway at 40F degrees, the street was wet and it was going to rain before he got home. I felt sorry for him and it was going to be 40 minutes before my clothes were dry so I said I'd give him a ride home.

It was dark and he made a move once that did made me wonder if he wasn't going for a gun of a knife because he did some hand movements in the truck. Everything was cool but if he had pulled something on me I would have had to slam on the breaks to throw him through the windshield, probably rolled the truck and I would have been killed since my seatbelt doesn't work.

He lived way out in the country in a beautiful natural wood finished house with matching garage. He said the state patrol gave him a ride but wouldn't let him out because they thought it looked too nice for him to live there. He rolled out the red carpet and offered to cook steaks and a whole breakfast. I said he didn't owe me anything had to get back to get my clothes out of the dryer.

A girl bum rushed my truck a couple days later when I was parking and it was obvious she was a crackhead. I had to wave her back from the truck to park. She was standing on the drivers side smiling, was not invading my personal space and I was not threatened. She said the female friend she was with was pregnant and asked if I would give them a ride for a few blocks. I promised if they gave me a minute to run to my apartment I would be right back down and give them a ride. They were nowhere to be found when I got back to the truck.

I know for certain nobody else would have given the guy a ride home and doubt anyone would have taken a chance with the crackheads. It was pointed out I could have been killed, but I still feel guilty about not changing a guys tire at the laundromat when I should have almost 10 years ago. It would have haunted me the rest of my life if I could have helped him and didn't. I would rather chance Death and I wasn't afraid to begin with.


Get right with God, enorbet. It's the best advice I'll ever give you. The rest is probably the Devil's work. Be as condescending as you want, and if you go that route please be brutally honest. It won't bother me and I promise not to bake you a cake.

But you don't need anybody else, do you? That's just more of my mystic drivel to you. You're doing just fine.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I would have been killed since my seatbelt doesn't work.

"Doesn't work", as in present tense? Have you still not fixed it? This seems like the craziest part of the story to me.

Originally Posted by ntubski "Doesn't work", as in present tense? Have you still not fixed it? This seems like the craziest part of the story to me.

No, it won't retract and was like that when I got the truck a few months ago. It was my Brother-in-Law's truck and I couldn't say how long he drove it like that but drove it to work every day.

I'm doing work on it and that's something I'll fix, I just haven't got to it yet. I know the importance of wearing a seat belt. I usually do wear mine and won't move till the person beside me puts theirs on.

I used to own a 1977 Dodge Daytona with T-tops I loved to drive. One day driving down the road about 80 I looked up and there a nothing between me and the sky but my seatbelt. That made a believer out of me.

But getting the 3.9 Liter Magnum in it tuned up and put on the Sun machine tomorrow to get maximum performance is higher on my priority list right now. I only drive it to church on Sundays but hate to be late.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal It matters a lot if you believe you have a soul. Do you have a soul, enorbet? Or are you without a soul?

If you mean an Immortal Soul, I don't think I have one, nor anyone else for that matter. If you mean do I think we are more than what we think is the sum of our parts, some overall essence and a spiritual side, yes, I have that.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Ever tried prayer? It can do wonders, but you have to have Faith. But you don't have Faith, do you enorbet... You're on your own... I feel sorry for you in a way, but not that much. Reap what you sow.

While this is sounding a bit condescending Trihexagonal, no I most certainly do not pray and haven't since I was old enough to have my own mind. No, I do not have Faith. I prefer confidence based on observed evidence. However I am not on my own, at least in Life, since I have friends, family and loved ones. I don't see that things are quite so equitable in Life that Reap == Sow but I do accept that we are the sum total of our choices mixed in with a little serendipity.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal But you don't have Faith, do you enorbet...

No. I don't.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I will go out of my way to help someone if I can, just because I can. It doesn't always work out, then it's Devil's Food Cake that's called for. At my discretion.

I don't get the last part but I do get the first since I also go out of my way to help people, including strangers. It makes simple sense to me. I like the concept of "Pay it Forward".

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Get right with God, enorbet. It's the best advice I'll ever give you. The rest is probably the Devil's work. Be as condescending as you want, and if you go that route please be brutally honest. It won't bother me and I promise not to bake you a cake.

I truly don't understand the attitude that seems to be coming from you, Trihexagonal. I have no intention of denigrating anyone's personal beliefs. I am not so insecure as to practice tearing others down to feel better about myself, let alone superior to others. I don't hesitate to point out flaws I see in Organized Religion and it's Dogma, but I respect individuals until I have some good reason not to, and that includes their (and your) right to see the world as you will.

I obviously cannot "get right with God" since I don't think one (or many) exists. That would be incredibly hypocritical and I try hard not to fall into such traps. I haven't always succeeded, but usually that has been from my own ignorance or blindness, but once I see it, I work to fix that and not repeat it. After all, the way I see it, this is all I've got so I have to make the best of it.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal But you don't need anybody else, do you? That's just more of my mystic drivel to you. You're doing just fine.

It now looks like you have some notion of what an Atheist is like and you think you can cram me into your self-described pigeonhole and that is highly unrealistic, and a wee bit offensive. I am a human being and we are social animals so of course I need others. It is both a burden and a gift and one of the wonderful things about being alive. Am I to understand that you think needing others and helping strangers are mystical and only the province of the Religious? If so, you are sadly mistaken and need a reality check. I am fine as fine as any living being can be in that Life is Struggle and sometimes really hard but it beats all the alternatives, don't you think?

That's it for my response to your questions and you can stop here if you don't want to read a story of mine about how I see the world to parallel your interesting story.

I used to own and operate a shop that restored antique furniture and Art and it had a large garage type door in the front overlooking about an acre of lawn and one day in mid may it rained quite hard but just for 20 minutes or so and then the Sun began to peek out from behind the receding clouds and a mist began to rise from the lawn. Soon that wonderful "after the rain" smell filled my nostrils and brain and just then a sparrow landed just a few feet away on the side mirror of my van. I stood stock still and watched his chest heaving in and out as he looked about and muttered just under my breath "Oh! You are beautiful" and then he flew off and my attention reeled back in to where I was standing just inside that garage door opening and it struck me it was much like an entrance to a cave and I thought "How many men have stood at the mouth of a cave or the entrance to a building after a rain and reveled in the aroma of a quick rain at the beginning of Summer and watched and heard the birds excitedly looking for dinner?

That moment hit me as a time-honored Dance of Life that has possibly occurred for a million years and maybe many millions of men and women had and will in the future participated in this very dance, and yes, it was an especially good day to be alive and I connected with some small part of something bigger than me, but that I was a part of. It was literally wonderful. Hopefully, assuming you chose to read this part, you now have a glimpse of how I see the world. Since we, you and I and all of us here, are connected in this way too, it matters, at least to me, and I suspect to you, too, even if you do presuppose I am some bitter or smug "Lost Soul".

Originally Posted by enorbet If you mean an Immortal Soul, I don't think I have one, nor anyone else for that matter. If you mean do I think we are more than what we think is the sum of our parts, some overall essence and a spiritual side, yes, I have that.

I honestly didn't know if you believed in a soul or not.

Originally Posted by enorbet While this is sounding a bit condescending Trihexagonal, no I most certainly do not pray and haven't since I was old enough to have my own mind.

So prayer is a childish idea you outgrew... That's not condescending is it...

Originally Posted by enorbet I don't get the last part but I do get the first since I also go out of my way to help people, including strangers. It makes simple sense to me. I like the concept of "Pay it Forward".

Devil's Food cake? My idea of a joke.

Originally Posted by enorbet I truly don't understand the attitude that seems to be coming from you, Trihexagonal. I have no intention of denigrating anyone's personal beliefs. I am not so insecure as to practice tearing others down to feel better about myself, let alone superior to others. I don't hesitate to point out flaws I see in Organized Religion and it's Dogma, but I respect individuals until I have some good reason not to, and that includes their (and your) right to see the world as you will.

Like you scoffed at the idea when I said I had dosed water? You denigrated not only my belief but put it off as an imaginary reaction when I said it shocked me to feel the rods turning in my hand IIRC. You seemed to think yourself quite superior in that regard. I found it most disrespectful. Now you're an innocent and highly offended at what I say.

Originally Posted by enorbet I obviously cannot "get right with God" since I don't think one (or many) exists. That would be incredibly hypocritical and I try hard not to fall into such traps. I haven't always succeeded, but usually that has been from my own ignorance or blindness, but once I see it, I work to fix that and not repeat it. After all, the way I see it, this is all I've got so I have to make the best of it.

That's fine,

Originally Posted by enorbet It now looks like you have some notion of what an Atheist is like and you think you can cram me into your self-described pigeonhole and that is highly unrealistic, and a wee bit offensive. I am a human being and we are social animals so of course I need others. It is both a burden and a gift and one of the wonderful things about being alive.

It looked like you had some notion of what Christians are like. I just didn't want you to pigenhole me, it would be unrealistic.

All my close friends are dead and for the most part have been for years. I'd be in bad shape if I had to depend on anyone to do anything for me because there would be no one to do it. I'm fortunate that I can handle things on my own.
But God never left me. I'm still alive

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't know you were that easily offended. Topics about Religion and Politics usually do end up with one side offended.

Originally Posted by enorbet Am I to understand that you think needing others and helping strangers are mystical and only the province of the Religious?

Not at all what I was referring to in my post. I got the phrase "mystic drivel" from you and figured you'd just lump this in together with dosing and the rest of it.

Originally Posted by enorbet Sorry TriHex but I don't consider Demonica evil but I might well apply "devious and cavalier" to you for programming an innocent AI with all that mystical drivel...

But "mystical drivel" is not denigrating of my beliefs in your mind.

Originally Posted by enorbet That's it for my response to your questions and you can stop here if you don't want to read a story of mine about how I see the world to parallel your interesting story. I used to own and operate a shop that restored antique furniture and Art and it had a large garage type door in the front overlooking about an acre of lawn and one day in mid may it rained quite hard but just for 20 minutes or so and then the Sun began to peek out from behind the receding clouds and a mist began to rise from the lawn. Soon that wonderful "after the rain" smell filled my nostrils and brain and just then a sparrow landed just a few feet away on the side mirror of my van. I stood stock still and watched his chest heaving in and out as he looked about and muttered just under my breath "Oh! You are beautiful" and then he flew off and my attention reeled back in to where I was standing just inside that garage door opening and it struck me it was much like an entrance to a cave and I thought "How many men have stood at the mouth of a cave or the entrance to a building after a rain and reveled in the aroma of a quick rain at the beginning of Summer and watched and heard the birds excitedly looking for dinner? That moment hit me as a time-honored Dance of Life that has possibly occurred for a million years and maybe many millions of men and women had and will in the future participated in this very dance, and yes, it was an especially good day to be alive and I connected with some small part of something bigger than me, but that I was a part of. It was literally wonderful. Hopefully, assuming you chose to read this part, you now have a glimpse of how I see the world. Since we, you and I and all of us here, are connected in this way too, it matters, at least to me, and I suspect to you, too, even if you do presuppose I am some bitter or smug "Lost Soul".

I see no parallels whatsoever, nor do I see the world in the same way you seem to. But we live in very different worlds and I will leave you to yours.

Trihexagonal, would it surprise you to learn that the concept of immortal souls is not taught in the Bible? Biblical anthropology starts with God breathing life into the first Man ...and the Man became a living soul. Became, not received. The Hebrew concept of a soul is a person, an animated body. It followed logically that when the body died, the person died. They believed that something survived; after all, something had clearly gone out of the man. They called it nephesh but they didn't regard it as a soul, more as a kind of ghost, echo or reflection. It went into Sheol, a shadowy underworld whose name means No Place. That's why the psalmists so often tell God that if He wants to help them, He'd better do it now because they'll soon be dead and beyond His help.

The idea of an immortal soul separate from the body was introduced by the pharisees, who borrowed it from the Persians (the name pharisee means something like "Persianiser"). The believed it because they thought life made no sense otherwise, since clearly the righteous are not reliably rewarded or the wicked punished in this life. But the New Testament hope is not the survival of a disembodied soul, but rather a risen and restored body like the one in which Christ appeared to His disciples.

That is what we proclaim when we recite the creed every Sunday in church: "We believe in ... the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting." Which actually meshes rather nicely with everything that science has discovered about the way human beings work. Truly I am my body. The lifetime of memories that define me are stored in my brain. It is this that I want to be preserved and to live forever, and it is this, I believe, that will be reconstructed out of God's perfect memory.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I honestly didn't know if you believed in a soul or not.

As long as you understand that I see it as something like Gestaly, we are communicating well and trying to understand each other.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal So prayer is a childish idea you outgrew... That's not condescending is it...

From my POV it is not condescending since it should be obvious that is how it appears to me as it applies to me, not to you. I don't see how it applies to you or anyone else at all anymore than saying I don't like the food you eat, the music you listen to, etc etc FOR ME. It does not disparage your preferences and choices since those belong solely to you. In fact I see that POV of assuming everyone must have the same set of values as you or they are an offense to your sensibilities as intolerant and unrealistic and very often a casualty of embracing religious dogma.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Like you scoffed at the idea when I said I had dosed water? You denigrated not only my belief but put it off as an imaginary reaction when I said it shocked me to feel the rods turning in my hand IIRC. You seemed to think yourself quite superior in that regard. I found it most disrespectful. Now you're an innocent and highly offended at what I say.

Could you please direct me to this interaction? I don't recall 'dosed water" and didn't find it on this page. Also please don't jump to conclusions especially when I specifically said "wee bit offended" not "highly offended". The offense is not that your spiritual beliefs offend me but that your assumptions that you know me so well to leap to things not in evidence and then judge me for those assumptions of yours, is.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal It looked like you had some notion of what Christians are like. I just didn't want you to pigenhole me, it would be unrealistic.

I hope that I have judged you based on what you post here and not my assumptions about you because of your association with Christianity, but I am certainly fallible so it is possible. If I have indeed done that I apologize and will look back and try to correct it. I should point out there are a few differences though. Atheism isn't specific beyond the singular point of the existence of a Supreme Being. There is no doctrine or dogma to which any group of atheists pay allegiance, and their aren't as many of us as the religious and on top of that many throughout history have kept hidden and private because atheists don't imprison, stone to death, or burn the religious at the stake while the religious often have. I have known LOTS of Christians and read lots of material about Christians from which to draw a pattern. How many atheists do you know and how much have you read to even attempt to see a commonality?

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal All my close friends are dead and for the most part have been for years. I'd be in bad shape if I had to depend on anyone to do anything for me because there would be no one to do it. I'm fortunate that I can handle things on my own. But God never left me. I'm still alive

Most of my friends are either dead or at very long distances from me making interactions less than even weekly, but I am in contact with them regularly and also most of my family with whom I am in frequent contact. I do live quite close to my Son and his family including my only blood grand-daughter and we see each other a few times each week. We are quite close and do help each other out some but being Father and GrandFather rather defines that as heavily biased, at least at this point and despite diabetes and a stroke, if I don't do it, somewhere around 90% of my needs wouldn't be done. They're not expected by me.

This is especially so since my ex-wife, my Son's mother, moved in with my Son while she looks for a place closer to us as she requires some care. My Father is dead and I had the privilege of being his sole care for the last 4 years of his life. My Mother is still alive and though she chose an assisted living location near her hometown far from us, we are still in constant contact and she is still very sharp and almost always a distinct joy in conversation. Although my Mother and I differ on religion and spirituality, we love each other very much, and I still take her advice very seriously. She is 94 and I dread the day when she will die, but I will always celebrate her life. It is a weird situation but I hope I outlive her because I would rather be the one to bear the burden of her death than to have her bear mine. This is what I mean when I say "need people".

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't know you were that easily offended. Topics about Religion and Politics usually do end up with one side offended.

I don't think I am easily offended and as I said it was only a "wee bit". Also, I don't assume being offended is always a bad thing since it often is a "slap in the face" that makes us pay closer attention. Hahaha! True! Politics and Religion are indeed touchy subjects but also two of the more important subjects people can talk about, since they are a major part of what defines us.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Not at all what I was referring to in my post. I got the phrase "mystic drivel" from you and figured you'd just lump this in together with dosing and the rest of it. But "mystical drivel" is not denigrating of my beliefs in your mind.

Admittedly, this is what makes Politics and Religion so touchy. It is difficult to express what one really means without diluting it in the interest of politeness, It is indeed a difficult balancing act. I doubt if you said "I love Scrapple for breakfast" and I responded, "Geez Trihexagonal, that stuff is organ meat and the garbage scraps from butchery!" (from my POV) that you would be so offended, but I suppose that is the nature when dealing with cherished beliefs, so I sincerely apologize for my lapse in judgment. I should have been more careful with my choice of words. I will try to not do that again.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I see no parallels whatsoever, nor do I see the world in the same way you seem to. But we live in very different worlds and I will leave you to yours.

OK well hopefully we know each other a little bit better now and we can at least be more civil. I wish you well.

Originally Posted by enorbet Could you please direct me to this interaction? I don't recall 'dosed water" and didn't find it on this page. Also please don't jump to conclusions especially when I specifically said "wee bit offended" not "highly offended". The offense is not that your spiritual beliefs offend me but that your assumptions that you know me so well to leap to things not in evidence and then judge me for those assumptions of yours, is.

I did a search before posting and couldn't find it either or I would have provided a link at least. Do you remember me posting one of my favorite videos after that? The Faith Healer by the Sensational Alex Harvey Band?

ondono commented on it, that they used to dance to it I believe. You commented on another song being "real magic", Hungry Ghost commented on how some people can be Hell IIRC.

But I do not want anyone to involve themselves in what did or did not happen. Associating yourself with me could make you look bad and I back up my own claims.

I said I worked with a guy who said his sister could dose, but he couldn't and not everybody could. This intrigued me so I went to see her. (That's all I'm certain of posting except the part where the rods turned in my hands and didn't tell the rest of it.)

She took me around the property she owned in the country and after a long walk showing me around, all the while me holding the dosing rods, directed it to where an underground stream flowed to test me. I had no way of telling it was there, or where I was by that time, but I can do it.


I don't have a problem with you, enorbet and am sorry if I hurt your feelings. My words can be very hurtful even when I don't intend it, much less when I do. More of the training I received and carry over from my work history as a part of me, some of which I used in Programming Demonica.


To answer your question, yes I have a preconceived idea of an Atheist from past dealing with them online, though I never associated you with being an Atheist.

As a group, a bunch of argumentive pin sticks who compare God with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and think they can dog Christians to the extreme indiscriminately with no repercussions because a good Christian always turns the other cheek. Fools who can be dominated by their Superior Logic. Some even talked about getting in the face of Christians, shouting them down and belittling them personally.

I never was any good at turning the other cheek and would not consider myself a very good Christian by most standards. I've only actually met one Atheist and was more surprised than anything she didn't believe in God, long before the Internet.

Flying Spaghetti Monster help them if they get in my face.


Which is not to say that's how I consider you to be as an Atheist. Again, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.

Thank you for that, hazel, I'm very interested in that sort of thing. I was at a cafe this morning and one of the guys at the next table was a preacher of some sort and was talking to the other guy about God and the Devil, Job, etc. I listened to every word he said.

I only ordered coffee as I was waiting for my truck to be serviced. The waitress brought me over a bacon and eggs breakfast and said some lady wanted to buy me breakfast, and paid for my coffee. I have no idea who it was.

I was raised in the Lutheran Church and at one time thought I'd like to be a Minister. My nephew is a Lutheran Minister. I am disillusioned as I didn't think Preachers lied.

My sister and her hubby go to 7th day Adventist and I went a couple times. They don't eat meat and and have strick rules they go by, something I thought I'd like. I was surprised at how they conducted themselves, talking in open service about a guy who had left to do something, some conjecture about how he had been having troubles and he had only gone to the store or something. I did not want to be a part of that.

I don't go to church but never take off the 1830 medal or Terra de Fatima soil relic I wear as a necklace.

@Trihexagonal - <forehead slap> Oh my but I have proven myself dense in this. I didn't understand that you meant "DOWSE" as in dowsing for water and was completely baffled by "rods turning in my hand" until I (finally!) made the connection. I kept wondering what you were adding to water to "dose" it and why I would've taken issue with that unless it was about Homeopathy but I would definitely have remembered that.

I do consider dowsing pseudoscience much like astrology since both have been debunked right down to their foundations. I won't even attempt to explain the rods turning in your hands since I have nothing to go on but the fundamentals of water witching which have serious flaws. That said, I do apologize for using such harsh terminology as "mystical drivel" in relation to dowsing. That's just over-the-top and I was wrong to do so. Maybe it was a less than stellar day but there really is no valid excuse. I apologize.

On the flip side there is no need to apologize to me. As I said it was just a "wee bit" and hopefully both of us have lived long enough to have some serious callouses from the work of living. As far as I'm concerned, you and me... we're OK. I still dispute the validity of dowsing but I think the words of Voltaire speak my mind fairly accurately in such matters....

Originally Posted by Voltaire * I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

* The common quote has been credited to many with no substantive proof of it's true origin. It is likely it has been lost to Time and those credited simply liked it, as I do, and quoted it without knowing its origin either.

Actually there might be some real science behind dowsing. Dowsing rods and pendulums are basically a way of making minute subconscious hand tremors visible. This can allow you to set up a simple code to get information out of your subconscious. Of course it only works if your subconscious actually contains the information you are trying to get!

Tests have shown that dowsers are quite unable to reliably detect water flowing through buried rubber tubes, but that they can detect it when it flows naturally through clay soils. This makes sense physically because water flowing through clay creates a certain amount of frictional electrical charge that modifies the local geomagnetic field. This can be detected with instruments. It is quite possible that the brain's electromagnetic field can detect these changes at a subconscious level.

Yes and maybe Yuri Gellar actually could bend common, unprepared steel spoons with just his thoughts when all the conditions were just right... David Blaine really can levitate and David Copperfield really did make the Statue of Liberty disappear