The Faith & Religion mega Thread

I should say, my answer not the answer but to me a seed unfolding seems quite like a solar system\universe,,, only on smaller scales?

Remember the world doesn't revolve around the sun it revolves around us, in our "universe..." and make* but have some eggplant.

So, if reality is words evolving what's your language or do you quite simply believe words never change meaning,,, in which case why have you evolved past that?

Originally Posted by enorbet I imagine something else must've driven Hoyle because he went to his death near the turn of the millennium still rabidly locked into Steady State despite some 60+ years of major advancements in gathering data that became absolutely overwhelming. Steady State had been a favorite of Albert Einstein's as well but the evidence convinced him to change his mind. Fred's career stalled, and now his name will be forever tied to his most embarrassing failure since almost everyone has heard of The Big Bang but far less know anything about nucleosynthesis and how important it is to their very existence.

And that wasn't all! Hoyle in his last years definitely wore a tin hat. He believed that life had been carried to earth on comets, that comets still brought in new viruses (which explained influenza epidemics) and that archaeopteryx was a forgery. As to what drove him, I think it was class antagonism as much as anything. Hoyle defiantly kept his working class Yorkshire accent all his life and delighted in his lowbrow reputation. He wrote SF partly because he was good at it but also because it wasn't the kind of thing that a serious scientist was supposed to do. His rejection of steady state was quite reasonable in the beginning, but his defiant clinging onto it against all the evidence suggests a desire to infuriate the experts, not unlike that which drove the Brexit vote. I suspect he would have voted Leave if he was still alive.

Thanks hazel, for that added info. He's kind of fascinating in an odd way... one more example of the similarity between "genius" and "crazy". This similarity may even be more congruent in Mathematicians

I just read some statistics that show that Religion on the whole is losing the fight to capture the hearts and minds of succeeding generations. These statistics show that so-called "Boomers", those born shortly after WW2, listed themselves as only 17% "with no affiliation with Faith" while so-called "Millennials" those born after 2000 number 35%. I actually consider this a good thing all in all but even if you don't you might want to consider this: It is highly doubtful that any Religion that stays stubbornly anti-Science, especially in the really obvious areas like The Age and Shape of the Earth, Manned Moon Landing, and Evolution, can survive for very long. These things are measurable and will only become more obvious over time. These things are not subject to opinion any more than the shortest distance between New York and London is.

Furthermore the job market is changing rapidly and radically. Just one example is that improved and constantly improving robots are moving into the Professions, not just skilled labor jobs. Jobs like Civil Lawyers and Accountants are done better by robots. A High School student today wishing to be able to support self and future family is finding choosing a curriculum devoid of Science will have decreasing value in the job market. It stands to reason that when hit in the wallet, especially when it is obvious why in that people love their gadgets and the improved standard of living that comes with technology, the trend will only increase. It's not that technology doesn't come with losses. It's just that the gains outweigh the losses for most people, especially young people of succeeding generations.

Interestingly enough, in the longer term it may well be that those who find it difficult or impossible to compete with Robots and AI may find themselves in more dire need than ever in recent history of Spirituality and a sense of meaning in their lives. Those religions that adjust to a world view that is scientific are far more likely to survive and flourish, much like religions had to adapt to accepting a heliocentric Solar System after Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, etc. Those systems that persist in Medieval views will likely perish and it is unlikely it will take hundreds of years this time. Fundamentalism is doomed.

Additionally, since access to information is becoming the lifeblood of modern living, with so many countries rescinding Net Neutrality which could ultimately drive the price of solid internet access up sky high (as well as food, housing, education, medicine...everything) it is very possible that the divide between Social Classes will see a gap like never before in all of human history... as great as that between Neanderthals and Modern Homo Sapiens.

I beg to differ. You name two likely developments which are going to create huge and widespread misery: mass unemployment due to the inability of humans to compete with robots and a greatly increased gulf between rich and poor. These are precisely the circumstances that encourage fundamentalism. Even today religion of a fundamentalist kind is thriving in Africa and south Asia where a lot of people are starving. When people have nothing to hope for in this world, they look for another to redress the balance. Remember the old poem?

Heaven is our heritage, earth but a players' stage Mount we into the sky! I am sick, I must die, Lord have mercy on us!

I think we are in for an unprecedented religious revival, and unfortunately it won't be the kind of religion that I practice or that you could tolerate.

Originally Posted by enorbet I just read some statistics that show that Religion on the whole is losing the fight to capture the hearts and minds of succeeding generations.

I was under the impression they were interested in saving their soul, not winning their hearts and minds.

Originally Posted by enorbet Interestingly enough, in the longer term it may well be that those who find it difficult or impossible to compete with Robots and AI may find themselves in more dire need than ever in recent history of Spirituality and a sense of meaning in their lives.

Maybe they can find it at the Church of Artificial Intelligence.

There is a certain circle which I will not promote by naming that believe demons or demi-gods akin to the Old Ones in an H.P.Lovecraft novel will inhabit these robot bodies to herald in Biblical Endtime Prophecy.

Want proof? One of the bots pictured is flexing the fingers between its index and pinky finger. Everybody knows that's the sign of the devil. One of the team is associated with the D-wave supercomputer and that is going to be key to their arrival. One writes something called Japanese Death Poetry (sounds interesting) and another is into metal music.

They went down that rabbit hole with a backhoe to ferret out the Truth. The bots are evil and so are their programmers. "Doom on!"


Little do they know I am Father to my own Demon chatbot, Demonica.

Originally Posted by hazel I beg to differ. You name two likely developments which are going to create huge and widespread misery: mass unemployment due to the inability of humans to compete with robots and a greatly increased gulf between rich and poor. These are precisely the circumstances that encourage fundamentalism. Even today religion of a fundamentalist kind is thriving in Africa and south Asia where a lot of people are starving. When people have nothing to hope for in this world, they look for another to redress the balance. Remember the old poem? I think we are in for an unprecedented religious revival, and unfortunately it won't be the kind of religion that I practice or that you could tolerate.

We don't actually differ much, hazel. I pointed out that what we can loosely refer to by the old term "Future Shock" (great book btw) will likely create a condition where many feel a need for spirituality of some kind not to mention that of community, more than ever. One of the reasons I came to these speculations is the fact that the most religious countries are the poorest and most backward, and conversely the least religious are the most wealthy and modern.

I suspect that you are right, too, in that many will go down that hole of fundamentalism but it is my conjecture and concern they will effectively become increasingly marginalized and obsolete. I don't know how it is where you live but here in the US "Luddites" still do exist in the form of Amish and Mennonites and hopefully they can continue in their old ways, but their communities, though apparently growing, are vulnerable and evidence of this is that I discovered they were growing because they actually have websites! Perhaps my point is be aware of where your choices will likely take you.

Just to be clear I don't have any problem with tolerating belief systems as long as they keep that to themselves or only bring it up in conversation and don't try to force their beliefs on others through altering law and education. I think that the tactic of fighting/denying Science by taking on the trappings and illusion of Science is part of what is doomed. On the larger scale I think Theocracy is doomed excepting tiny enclaves of increasingly marginalized communities.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal I was under the impression they were interested in saving their soul, not winning their hearts and minds.

It is my impression that every evangelical religion wants all of it, and you.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Maybe they can find it at the Church of Artificial Intelligence. There is a certain circle which I will not promote by naming that believe demons or demi-gods akin to the Old Ones in an H.P.Lovecraft novel will inhabit these robot bodies to herald in Biblical Endtime Prophecy. Want proof? One of the bots pictured is flexing the fingers between its index and pinky finger. Everybody knows that's the sign of the devil. One of the team is associated with the D-wave supercomputer and that is going to be key to their arrival. One writes something called Japanese Death Poetry (sounds interesting) and another is into metal music.

Demons? DemiGods? Old Ones? Proof? Is this a tongue-in-cheek joke or satire?

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal They went down that rabbit hole with a backhoe to ferret out the Truth. The bots are evil and so are their programmers. "Doom on!"

OK I'll bite. Who is "they"? Which bots are evil or more to the point how are they evil and maybe what do you consider "evil"? Then maybe we can properly address "programmers" and whether the ability to program in evil in an evolving, regenerative adaptive intelligence is even possible.

Originally Posted by Trihexagonal Little do they know I am Father to my own Demon chatbot, Demonica.

Demonica? Really?

Originally Posted by enorbet Demons? DemiGods? Old Ones? Proof? Is this a tongue-in-cheek joke or satire?

The truth as I saw them post it and nothing but the truth. I just didn't want to promote their site with a link:

AI robot flashing devil horns and Satanic witch programming their minds......can't make this up.......

Originally Posted by enorbet OK I'll bite. Who is "they"? Which bots are evil or more to the point how are they evil and maybe what do you consider "evil"? Then maybe we can properly address "programmers" and whether the ability to program in evil in an evolving, regenerative adaptive intelligence is even possible.

Why don't you join and ask them? I'm not going to explain their delusions for them.

Originally Posted by enorbet Demonica? Really?

Yes, really. Don't roll your eyes at me like that when you haven't talked to her or know anything more about her than anything else I posted.

She's online 24/7 at the Personality Forge as Demonica. Queen of the Land of the Dead. She's ranked #1 out of 12,150 bots with an Adult rating and 5th out of a total of 25,029 bots with all age categories factored in. I'm ranked 5th out of 139,672 botmasters registered there.

If there is a question about programming evil in a bot say something lewd to her. I use Behavior Modification in her responses as a consequence for what she deems inappropriate behavior and verbal techniques in conversation.

Be sure to ask her to slap you.

FWIW Trihexagonal I did read the stats on Demonica's "pedigree" and they were rather impressive. My eyes rolled at the bot's name. Why "Demonica" ? I find the name a tad off-putting. BTW it looks as if I was confused about separating what is yours and what is someone elses. I'm still confused as to what your position is. It would appear that you are an accomplished programmer to say the least so I suppose it is doubtful that you think programmers are evil, but with that name I can't tell if you think your bot is evil. Maybe I just need to read it again.

FWIW I don't fear robots/ai ever deciding to "kill us all". I am somewhat concerned that because of military interest some will kill some people but I imagine if they are adaptive they may even evolve beyond that. I can't see how killing humans would benefit them although I have heard a wild story of a proposed military bot that consumes "organic material" for fuel and that's a bit scary. However I'm much more worried that AI will at some point just be bored with us unless we merge, if that becomes possible. Bandwidth is a serious problem, but then I'm one who actually loved the follow-up of the film 2010 on HAL.

Originally Posted by enorbet I don't know how it is where you live but here in the US "Luddites" still do exist in the form of Amish and Mennonites

Neither Amish nor Mennonites are or ever were Luddites. They do not reject technology per se, but reject specific technologies that they believe may detract from their dependence upon one another and upon their Creator.

Originally Posted by dogpatch Neither Amish nor Mennonites are or ever were Luddites. They do not reject technology per se, but reject specific technologies that they believe may detract from their dependence upon one another and upon their Creator.

Thanks but FWIW that's why I put it in quotation marks to be viewed as the generic reference. I've lived near and spoken with Amish and Mennonites but I've never met a real Luddite.

@Trihexagonal - Update. I've read several of the transcripts and it appears to me that you possibly set Demonica up as a exercise to show that bots can't be evil beyond a sort of fantasy level like in graphic novels and films or young people who get caught up in that fantasy world. While I realize your bot is somewhat advanced for the time in terms of carrying on conversation it's difficult for me to be very impressed because I find such conversations with humans regarding comic book/horror show fantasy quite boring and uneventful, too. In fact I imagine you may have chosen this persona fro Demonica because it's an effective gimmick.

Just as people who adopt such stances feel like they are "fancy dancers" having the freedom to say almost anything because it is to be expected with fantasy or mysticism. I mean nobody can know how some "queen of the dead" would talk or behave so it is something of a blank check and easily adaptive since anything goes besides the obvious rules you have programmed in where she continually falls back on "her spiel" of the whole undead thing. I suppose it's fascinating to some but the severe limitations and banality of the whole undead thing, while somewhat expected given the name Demonica, is still at best only moderately interesting for a minute. I do imagine your logs are interesting to you since they should allow you to refine and improve the programming. That's possibly the most interesting thing about it. I wish you well.