The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by swgeek but would put forth that there are other belief systems oppose evolution / atheism that may very well be true.

Well, atheism and evolution has little to do with each other. And atheistm's issues do not affect agnosticism.

Originally Posted by swgeek This very day we are witnessing the repudiation of some of Einstein's theory.

It is a bit too early to talk about that. I'd suggest to wait for a 10 or 20 years until scientists figure out what happened. Most likely scenario is that the theory will stand, but there were technical problem with experiment.

Originally Posted by swgeek The things that are under discussion have been hotly discussed for ages.

So, instead of addressing issues christianity has or answering questions people asked you, you decided to dodge all the questions and shift discussion focus to something "safe". I would prefer if believers were answering questions instead of running away from them. When you don't have the answer, at least admit it.

Originally Posted by swgeek No matter what you think of God, the Bible, or any other thing, Jesus Christ is the arguably the most influential, pivotal human being that ever lived.

If jesus actually existed (it seems most historians think that he did exist), this won't prove existence of god or validity of christianity. The thread is about religion, not about significance of jesus. No matter what impact on history jesus has left, it doesn't prove existence of god. I do not think that jesus is the most influential, though. Ancient greece had plenty of good thinkers, somebody invented math, algebra, and there were unknown guys that totally changed the world by inventing fire and wheel.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life.

Sorry, but this statement can lead only to two possible outcomes:

1. There is no god
2. The god is evil or indifferent.

#1 - if god has to put humans to test, then it is unable to predict future. In this case it is not almighty. Which means it can't be called god.
#2 - god knows results of the test in advance, but puts people through the test anyway, even the test makes them suffer. Conclusion: god uses people to its own amusement. It is evil or indifferent.

You should reread the part you quoted. Why evil exists if god is supposed to be good, omnipotent and all-knowing? Your statement about "to test how we live" does not address this part in any way.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If we would have caught him, what maximum punishment we could have given him. Just maximum one life sentence.

Well... you lack imagination.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli It will probably answer all your questions if you know why we are here.... why we all got life.... To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life. How do we behave to our brothers, elders, other creators etc....Do we obey the rules of Almighty God. etc etc.... God knows past, present and ofcourse future. He is well knowing of everything. Each and every soul has to taste death, there is no exception. There will be judgement day. Each and every soul will brought up and God will be no unjust to anyone that day. Hitler killed million of jews. If we would have caught him, what maximum punishment we could have given him. Just maximum one life sentence. What about other 999,999. We can not punish him for everyone, but God can punish him in hell. Same way if you are very good human being, your life on earth will be beautiful and that will be nothing compare to what God will reward you in paradise. God has given you will knowledge and wisdom to decide whats wrong, and whats right. There will be no person who could say that I did this sin because you God already has written in my fate. We all are sole responsible for our deeds. Dont we? Do you feel any time any unseen power is controlling your body and forcing you to do sin... NO... We are doing sin with our choice. So we should be ready for result. We all know this, but I dont know why do we not accept it.

If I understand correctly, all that testing thing is only because god kicked us out of the Garden of Eden. And he kicked us out of there because Adam and Eve did eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, despite god forbid that. That was the point when the concept of sin was introduced, not when mankind was created. Sounds to me like: Well, I have created mankind, but they are boring. Let's introduce some new rules and see what happens (which should also be boring, because your god should have known what will happen). So the questions remain:
1. How should Adam have known that breaking god's rule and eating the fruit would be evil evil, when he wasn't aware of the concept of good and evil (and had no example for sin) before eating the fruit?
2. Why is god called the good father when he
a) kicked out mankind from paradise for making just one mistake? Would you call your neighbor a good father if he kicks out his children out of the house for making just one mistake?
b) was knowing before what would happen (all-knowing, remember?), but nonetheless made up that trap instead of protecting his creation from it?
3. If god knows what will happen (again, all-knowing), wouldn't it be easier to part the people up from the beginning to hell-goers and heaven-goers and send them to the appropriate places without that time-wasting life thing? But that wouldn't be so entertaining, would it?

EDIT: Have seen that to late:

No matter what you think of God, the Bible, or any other thing, Jesus Christ is the arguably the most influential, pivotal human being that ever lived.

Estimated number of Christians out there: 2.1 Billions
Number of cell phones worldwide: 4.6 Billions
The inventor of cell phones seems to be more influental.

The inventor of cell phones seems to be more influental.

…not trying to argue your main point here, but I think this is somewhat of a statistical flaw. To make that assumption is to assume exactly one cellphone per person. What about people who have multiple phones (e.g. one for work purposes as well as a personal cellphone)?

To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Sorry, but this statement can lead only to two possible outcomes: There is no god The god is evil or indifferent. #1 - if god has to put humans to test, then it is unable to predict future. In this case it is not almighty. Which means it can't be called god. #2 - god knows results of the test in advance, but puts people through the test anyway, even the test makes them suffer. Conclusion: god uses people to its own amusement. It is evil or indifferent.

I said God knows about you & your future which you dont know. And you have will to choose every step of your life. Result will be based on your decisions and deeds. Be aware God is not injustice.

Originally Posted by SigTerm You should reread the part you quoted. Why evil exists if god is supposed to be good, omnipotent and all-knowing? Your statement about "to test how we live" does not address this part in any way.

Simple: If everyone get pass and rank 100% in any school examination, would there be any test then?

Well... you lack imagination.

You are right here. You may guide me with your imagination what would be the ideal punishment for a man who killed millions of people.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life.

I have impression that you do not understand "all knowing" and "knows the future" part.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Simple: If everyone get pass and rank 100% in any school examination, would there be any test then?

You're comparing teachers with gods. All-knowing god should know with 100% certainty what choices the person will make on the test before this person's grandfather is born, so there is no reason to test. I have not heard of teachers with such ability.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You are right here. You may guide me with your imagination what would be the ideal punishment for a man who killed millions of people.

That would be against forum rules.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Be aware God is not injustice.

If god exists and runs this shop called the world, he's probably the most unjust manager/supervisor I've ever had (and I've had quite a few of them.)

What about thousand of innocent people dying everyday (natural disasters, diseases, wars (also religious) ones)? If he can see it and does nothing, then, as some
other poster mentioned recently, he either:

a) is not all that powerful
b) doesn't care
c) he's evil.
d) he doesn't exist.

One thing is certain: he can't be this good and loving deity that you guys are talking about.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli To answer you in simple words, we are here for test how do we live our life. I said God knows about you & your future which you dont know. And you have will to choose every step of your life. Result will be based on your decisions and deeds. Be aware God is not injustice.

It doesn't matter that we don't know, your god should know our decisions and deeds before he will send us to the test. He knows already the results, regardless if we have free will or not. If he doesn't know he can't be the almighty, all-knowing god.

You are right here. You may guide me with your imagination what would be the ideal punishment for a man who killed millions of people.

According to the bible the punishment is: burn in hell for eternity. But if I understand correctly, that punishment is always the same, regardless if you kill billions of people, one person, if you are committing adultery or don't honor your parents. I would call that unjust.

In my opinion, this whole testing thing sounds like a wrestling match: The result is known to the planners before, but nonetheless the fight will happen and be entertaining for someone.

Originally Posted by sycamorex If god exists and runs this shop called the world, he's probably the most unjust manager/supervisor I've ever had (and I've had quite a few of them.)

//offtopic
...reminds me of this webcomic.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD If I understand correctly, all that testing thing is only because god kicked us out of the Garden of Eden. And he kicked us out of there because Adam and Eve did eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, despite god forbid that. That was the point when the concept of sin was introduced, not when mankind was created. Sounds to me like: Well, I have created mankind, but they are boring. Let's introduce some new rules and see what happens (which should also be boring, because your god should have known what will happen). So the questions remain: 1. How should Adam have known that breaking god's rule and eating the fruit would be evil evil, when he wasn't aware of the concept of good and evil (and had no example for sin) before eating the fruit? 2. Why is god called the good father when he a) kicked out mankind from paradise for making just one mistake? Would you call your neighbor a good father if he kicks out his children out of the house for making just one mistake? b) was knowing before what would happen (all-knowing, remember?), but nonetheless made up that trap instead of protecting his creation from it? 3. If god knows what will happen (again, all-knowing), wouldn't it be easier to part the people up from the beginning to hell-goers and heaven-goers and send them to the appropriate places without that time-wasting life thing? But that wouldn't be so entertaining, would it?

I am not sure about all these stories of Adam (sa). You are quoting from Bible, which unfortunately went through iterations of human being over generations. Refer to original Bible, if available anywhere.

I am (and you are) not responsible for what Adam (sa) did in his life. We need to worry about our deeds. One need to be very big Shatan to get big punishment in hell. I believe God is kind enough to reward all of us paradise after our punishment term. This is what I think. Our actions should be towards God not to throw us in hellfire even for single second.

If there would be no test and directly one would be thrown to hell, wont he be complaining why i am in hell when I did no sin.....
To guide us not to fall false, He send down holy books, He sent messengers. Is this not a simple logic?

And this is not an entertainment channel, this is your life. Understand the meaning of it before its too late.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli To guide us not to fall false, He send down holy books, He sent messengers. Is this not a simple logic?

No. There is no logic at all. "All-mighty" and "all-knowing" god must be able to predict the future with 100% accuracy in detail. In other words, before creating the universe, god should've already known who will end up in hell or heaven, how many wars will be here and so on. If a deity possesses such ability, there is no reason to create universe - because the deity should already know what will happen.

A trick question:
IF a god can predict the future, can the god predict his/her/its own decisions?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I am not sure about all these stories of Adam (sa). You are quoting from Bible, which unfortunately went through iterations of human being over generations. Refer to original Bible, if available anywhere. I am (and you are) not responsible for what Adam (sa) did in his life. We need to worry about our deeds. One need to be very big Shatan to get big punishment in hell. I believe God is kind enough to reward all of us paradise after our punishment term. This is what I think. Our actions should be towards God not to throw us in hellfire even for single second. If there would be no test and directly one would be thrown to hell, wont he be complaining why i am in hell when I did no sin..... To guide us not to fall false, He send down holy books, He sent messengers. Is this not a simple logic? And this is not an entertainment channel, this is your life. Understand the meaning of it before its too late.

I think you still didn't get it. An all-knowing god will know everything of my life, my deeds and if I live according to his (hers? its?) rules even before creating the universe. He is ALL-knowing. So what is that test good for, if not entertaining god?
Also, how will that god evaluate the deeds and life of, for example, a new born baby that died in an earthquake, a two years old child that starved to death, a five years old child that died in a car accident or a child that will never reach an age that allows him to really think about his life and deeds? What kind of test is that?

Cronk here ...My people have lots of gods ; god of fire (Fire good) god of hunt( Meat good) god of thunder (we no like loud bang!) god of sex (REAL GOOD),god of river ( we like fishing) and all kinds of other gods just because we are very superstitious ! we even have gods to kill our enemies although this takes a lot of prayers, some arrows and clubs! Cronk go back up into his tree now let tiredofbilkyyaforallican back to pages!!!

God knows everything. It means God knows past, present and future of each and everything. I think we need to move on from here. Dont come back again and again saying God doesn't know future or his own decision.

With this you have question, why then test is for if God knows result and reward is hell or heaven.

Imagine, If God give us life and within no time He declares the result who will be part of hell and who will go to heaven. Is it not everyone of us will object to His decision. A sinner would say I had plan no to do any sin in life. Infact I did no sin in my life, why I am being thrown to hell. And thats true also. He just got his life and he made no sin till that time, how God would throw him to hell. Same way a person who would be getting reward of paradise, would also demand for higher level in paradise claiming he could be the best person obeying His commands. Remember in judgment day no one of us will be able to object the decision of God. There will be enough witnesses for our deeds. Even our body organs will be giving witness. We wont be in a position to deny that. And for that test is really required.
I gave example of teacher not to compare God with teacher but to give idea why test is really required. Test is for us so that no one of us would be in a position to object God decision.


Q: If God is kind, why there are natural disasters and innocent people get killed. Why there are kids and infants lost their life in their childhood.

I know this all happens. We should know every soul will taste death. For me death is a death, does not matter how it appears to us. I think I read somewhere the angel who take soul from body on our death asked God that I will be the most hated one among human beings because of my job. God replied him, you dont need to worry. Humans will be always blaming others, not you. Is this not true. We always say Mr X died on road accident, he was driving fast. Mr Y died because of heart attack. Mr Z died, oh he was very much old. Are not we busy blaming the reason of death, while we know he had to die that day that time.

In same way we are blaming natural calamities who is taking life of thousands in one go. We need to understand everyone has to die one day. They all had to die that day that time. In mass people die in plane crash also.

I know its very heartening when any innocent person or kids died. But we should understand their test is over and same time its a new test for their relatives. It will be a test of mother who lost his kid if she still continue believing in God and His decision. It will be a test of rich man who lost all his wealth in disaster. Any kid/infant who lost his life in childhood, will surely be in paradise. Because he would not have committed any sin by that time.

God has promised to provide us better life in heaven if we pass this test. God has full right to take life back anytime. Its Him only who gave this life.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli God knows everything. It means God knows past, present and future of each and everything. I think we need to move on from here. Dont come back again and again saying God doesn't know future or his own decision.

No, we are saying if God exists, neither you nor anyone else is in a position to know what he thinks or knows. There is no way to distinguish a genuine holy book, if there was such a thing, from a fake. There is no way to distinguish a genuine prophet, if there was such a thing, from a fake. If there was, we would not have the diversity of religions or religious sects within a particular religion. Are the Catholics right? Are the Protestants? Are the Eastern Orthodox folks? Are the Jehovah's Witnesses? Are the Sunnis right? Are the Shiites? Everyone's running around proclaiming that they and they alone know the truth about God and you're all full of it.

Imagine, If God give us life and within no time He declares the result who will be part of hell and who will go to heaven. Is it not everyone of us will object to His decision.

The point was not whether we would know. The point was that if God exists he would know, so what's the point of him testing us if he knows who we are and how we would react? Why take Abraham up on the mountain and command him to sacrifice his son if he already knew Abraham would do it? (And yet another example of why God is not good there.)

Q: If God is kind, why there are natural disasters and innocent people get killed. Why there are kids and infants lost their life in their childhood. In same way we are blaming natural calamities who is taking life of thousands in one go. We need to understand everyone has to die one day. They all had to die that day that time. In mass people die in plane crash also.

Why should everyone have to die? God could have just as easily made us immortal. Did it with the angels, right? According to the Bible people used to live for centuries, right? Why this particular life span now? Why have people die in accidents or natural disasters at all? Why create a world with earthquakes and tornadoes if he could have just as easily done otherwise? Why these natural disasters and not other sorts? Why not just say, "everyone gets 100 years, do what you will with that and I'll judge you at the end"?

Once again, there are no answers in religion. It doesn't help us understand why things are the way they are.

I know its very heartening when any innocent person or kids died. But we should understand their test is over and same time its a new test for their relatives. It will be a test of mother who lost his kid if she still continue believing in God and His decision. It will be a test of rich man who lost all his wealth in disaster.

More useless tests. Again you prove that God, as you and most people conceive of him, is not good.

Any kid/infant who lost his life in childhood, will surely be in paradise. Because he would not have committed any sin by that time.

Well, Christianity has the doctrine of original sin. That's why, until recently, the Catholic church maintained that infants don't get a free pass to heaven but must hang out in Purgatory. Course, they just changed their minds, so apparently the infallible popes of the last thousand years were pretty friggin' fallible after all.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli God knows everything. It means God knows past, present and future of each and everything. I think we need to move on from here. Dont come back again and again saying God doesn't know future or his own decision. ... He declares the result who will be part of hell and who will go to heaven. Is it not everyone of us will object to His decision.

You still don't get it. An omniscient god that "knows everything" will not "declare" who will go to hell or heaven, but will KNOW with absolute certainty what will happen. And you can't object to it, because the life will happen exactly in the way god knows.
With this is no reason to create universe, because god must already know the result. There is no reason to give life to anybody, since the god must know in advance who will end up in heaven or hell if they were born or given life.
For omnipotent and omniscient being there is no reason to test. It already must know the results of the test.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Q: If God is kind, why there are natural disasters and innocent people get killed. Why there are kids and infants lost their life in their childhood.

A. Because either there is no god, or it is not kind, or it is not omnipotent, or it is not caring, or it does not know everything.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli We always say Mr X died on road accident, he was driving fast. Mr Y died because of heart attack. Mr Z died, oh he was very much old. Are not we busy blaming the reason of death, while we know he had to die that day that time.

Does not justify death of children or death of victims of crimes and war. Some people die in really gruesome way, and being sent to heaven is not enough to fix the damage. Besides, deity has the power to prevent this from happening.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I know its very heartening when any innocent person or kids died. But we should understand their test is over and same time its a new test for their relatives. It will be a test of mother who lost his kid if she still continue believing in God and His decision. It will be a test of rich man who lost all his wealth in disaster. Any kid/infant who lost his life in childhood, will surely be in paradise. Because he would not have committed any sin by that time.

"heartening"? I'd say "unforgivable".
A test like this surely indicates that god is a sadist. A paradise can be a lie. And a dead person could lead much better life if he/she didn't die.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli God has promised to provide us better life in heaven if we pass this test. God has full right to take life back anytime. Its Him only who gave this life.

In my opinion, a decision like this is unjust.
"It is the nature of men to create monsters....and it is the nature of monsters to destroy their makers.".
I don't see why this wouldn't apply to God. See Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein". If you give life to something, you're responsible for it. If you aren't responsible, you will have to face consequences.
If there is a god like the one you describe, humans eventually will have to destroy it.