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firm believer 225 29.92%
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Old 09-25-2011, 02:55 AM   #3406
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
It's not for me to show you what God has already shown. As God attested to the selfish man who wished from hell for God to send someone from among the dead to warn his brothers--"If they've not listened to those I've already sent," said God, "they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."
Yes, it is up to you. You know how it works, you claim it, so prove it. If you deny that any discussion with you is pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swgeek
On your last point, excuse me, I believe that I did just that a few long posts ago.
Quoting from the bible is in no way an evidence.

Quote:
On your other points, we as human beings expect, and get obedience from our children long before they discern good and evil, in fact as soon as they can discern "no" and correct them and discipline them when they do not. That is accepted and practiced by the entire human race in one form or another. And you judge God for treating us as we justifiably do our own children? That could be called gross hypocrisy.
And good parents would know that the children make mistakes and would discipline in a correct way. Your god didn't "correct" anything, at the very first mistake that was made from the very first members of mankind he opened the door of his home and kicked them out. If parents would do that we wouldn't respect them in any way, or would you?

Quote:
Now as to the deluge, The bible states that at the time of Noah, men were grossly evil, and that the thought of their heart was nothing but continual evil, and God destroyed them.
Yes, he destroyed all people, especially the babies and little children that were so evil that god couldn't stand them anymore. Or were at this time any people adults, no children at all?

Quote:
Um, hello, that is what we as Christians are saying - he can will and does judge people, nations, and this present world.
If he exists, and if he judges the world as he has done before like it is written in the bible, then your god is not a just, benevolent, merciful god. In no way.

Quote:
Scientists through history have been a mixed bag, coming from nearly every walk of life, just like christians, and some of the greatest were staunch believers, not because an established religion said they had to be, but rather that they actually believed, and believed that there was a reasonable basis for that belief.
Science and religion are not opponents. I think the most different thing between believers that are scientists and other believers is that the scientists know that they are believing, not knowing. Many other believers claim that they know of the existence of god and that they have evidences (see the post of bluegospel some time before), but fail to deliver that evidence in a provable way. I would consider that this is even more harmful to that religion than just to say "I believe even without having an evidence".
I mean, there is a reason why the followers of a religion are called believers.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 03:27 AM   #3407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
He hides from us not because he doesn't love us, but because awesome holiness cannot have fellowship with what's perverse.
This doesn't sound really convincing. For a supernatural being there's no real need to hide that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
It's not for me to show you what God has already shown.
Yeah, sure. Your "god" has "shown" me nothing. And judging by the world around me, the world (IF it was created) could created by some kind of devil. The only proof you offer is bible - a very old book. WHY do you need bible anyway? I've read many books in my lifetime and I don't see anything that would set bible apart from standard myths/fiction. Humans can imagine entire universes - along with deities and mythologies(see lovecraft, tolkien or greek mythologies), so I see no real difference between bible, quaran and fiction. So you can't trust that book.

Also it is troubling that the only thing that supports your religion is this book and nothing else. For example, imagine that some kind of global catastrophe happens, our entire civilization disappears without any trace left behind - all books, technologies and knowledge vanish), humanity forgets everything and starts over from stone age. In such (improbable) scenario, new civilization is VERY likely to (eventually) rediscover everything science knows today - because scientific laws manifest themselves in our world - perform experiments again, and you will rediscover everything. So in a few thousands of years you once again will have chemistry, biology, newton's law, ohm's law, theory of evolution (nothing prevents you from digging up more dinosaurs) and probably even general relativity/quantum physics. On other hand, your religion most likely will be gone forever, since your deity does not regularly manifest itself in any way, and if you lose knowledge of bible, christianity is done for. Without bible you can't "rediscover" christianity. Don't you think this is strange?

Last edited by SigTerm; 09-25-2011 at 03:30 AM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:33 AM   #3408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
The only proof you offer is bible - a very old book.
Not so. God gives you conclusive evidence by enabling you to experience life, which I've stated quite redundantly. As I said, it's not for me to prove anything. If you reject what's obviously true from the overwhelming evidence God gives, who am I to think I can convince you. You obviously purposely reject truth, or else you think so little of yourself that you assume God hates you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
I've read many books in my lifetime and I don't see anything that would set bible apart from standard myths/fiction.
Show me another book with a complete history, from creation to the apocalypse, written over an extremity of years during which future history written prior has come to pass time and again. Show me the same with a plan of salvation from sin and death, written for mankind by God from the dawn of creation.
QUOTE]
 
Old 09-25-2011, 09:12 AM   #3409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Not so. God gives you conclusive evidence by enabling you to experience life, which I've stated quite redundantly.
Yes, you keep repeating the same beliefs without actually providing any evidence. Your claim about god's 'enabling us to experience life' is another empty and unsupported claim for which I'm yet to hear any evidence, let alone conclusive one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
As I said, it's not for me to prove anything.
Yes, it is for you. It's been explained here many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
If you reject what's obviously true from the overwhelming evidence God gives, who am I to think I can convince you. You obviously purposely reject truth, or else you think so little of yourself that you assume God hates you.
Your choice of words is not very fortunate: obviously, overwhelming evidence, truth. These are strong words, and the only thing you provided us with are YOUR BELIEFS the validity of which is not that obvious. Furthermore, it's not supported by evidence so I really doubt it'd constitute the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Show me another book with a complete history, from creation to the apocalypse, written over an extremity of years during which future history written prior has come to pass time and again. Show me the same with a plan of salvation from sin and death, written for mankind by God from the dawn of creation.
FYI, history is the study of past events. Whatever you write about the future is just pure speculation and you don't need to be divine to be relatively accurate as long as you don't include many specifics. btw, as far as I know, the bible's purpose is to be a moral guide (that's a good one, not a history coursebook.


Two things that you need to consider before you reply:
1. You can't prove the bible by quoting the bible.
2. Your claim that the fact that we live is a proof of god is nonsense. This is not a proof, this is another unsupported claim. Can you prove it?
You seem to try proving one unsupported claim with another unsupported claim. Come on.

Last edited by sycamorex; 09-25-2011 at 09:15 AM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 10:41 AM   #3410
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
2. Your claim that the fact that we live is a proof of god is nonsense. This is not a proof, this is another unsupported claim. Can you prove it?
You seem to try proving one unsupported claim with another unsupported claim. Come on.
To be careful, in a broad sense this could be considered evidence of God, in that it is not inconsistent with the God hypothesis. The problem is that it is equally evidential of any god or of no god or aliens growing us in a vat and seeding the earth. The mere fact of our existence does not give us any grounds to choose between competing hypothesis, it leads us nowhere, it does not justify belief in god or no god.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 12:03 PM   #3411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Not so. God gives you conclusive evidence by enabling you to experience life, which I've stated quite redundantly.
Sorry, but this is not a proof. I live. However, I have no reason to think that somebody or something "enabled" me to experience life. What made you think that somebody "enabled" you to live? There is no evidence of creator. A sentient robot would at least have manufacturer's address or maker's signature somewhere. So... where is it? It wouldn't be a problem for a god to put a "Made by GOD" stamp onto a bone somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
If you reject what's obviously true from the overwhelming evidence God gives,
WHERE is the evidence? I haven't seen anything, and no christian could provide anything useful as evidence. You keep redirecting people to bible, which is very likely is a fiction. You keep redirecting people to bible, but aside from that you can't give any "evidence". WHERE is the evidence? I'm agnostic, and my decision was to keep my position until either side provides decent argument. So far that never happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
You obviously purposely reject truth,
You have a weird definition of truth. I accept something as a truth when I have plenty evidence to support it. You have not and obviously cannot provide it. Also, your arguments make me think that it is very likely that your god doesn't exist, but you WANT it to exist, so you keep sincerely believing in a lie. Many have mentioned confirmation bias, I think this is a case of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
or else you think so little of yourself that you assume God hates you.
Nah I don't think so. I think that if there is a god then it either hates entire humanity, is indifferent towards it, doesn't know about it or uses people for its own entertainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Show me another book with a complete history, from creation to the apocalypse, written over an extremity of years during which future history written prior has come to pass time and again. Show me the same with a plan of salvation from sin and death, written for mankind by God from the dawn of creation.
QUOTE]
You're describing a mythical artifact. Bible isn't such book. I don't remember any passages describing WW1, WW2, Soviet union, Computer era, etc. So it does not have complete history. What I saw is a collection of myths from few thousands years ago, plus few ancient laws and rules.

You can't prove your religion using bible, and you can't prove bible using bible. Try another tactic.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 12:12 PM   #3412
brianL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Show me another book with a complete history, from creation to the apocalypse, written over an extremity of years during which future history written prior has come to pass time and again.
Really? If that is what is written in your bible, then it must be radically different to the one I've read.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 05:27 PM   #3413
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
FYI, history is the study of past events.
I understand that. But from God's perspective, whom I hold to have co-authorship of the Bible, the past and future are present. God is the context of time. John 8:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
relatively accurate as long as you don't include many specifics.
There are actually numerous specifics. The two most conspicuous that I know of are through Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah prophesied the future exile of Israel and sigificantly, the precise name, Cyrus (king of Persia), who would grant Israel's freedom almost 150 years later. Jeremiah gave the precise number of years Israel would be in exile, and that 20 years prior to their deportation. Numerous prophets foresaw Israel's exile and restoration throughout the Biblical record, but these are the two most explicit that I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
btw, as far as I know, the bible's purpose is to be a moral guide (that's a good one, not a history coursebook.
Actually it's replete with history, poetry, wisdom literature and moral guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
Two things that you need to consider before you reply:
1. You can't prove the bible by quoting the bible.
2. Your claim that the fact that we live is a proof of god is nonsense. This is not a proof, this is another unsupported claim. Can you prove it?
You seem to try proving one unsupported claim with another unsupported claim. Come on.
I've never attempted to prove God or the Bible by quoting the Bible. I might quite often refer to the Bible but not in a way entirely different from the way you might refer to Darwin, or worse, Dawkins (except that they're wrong (hehe).
 
Old 09-25-2011, 05:47 PM   #3414
bluegospel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
A sentient robot would at least have manufacturer's address or maker's signature somewhere. So... where is it? It wouldn't be a problem for a god to put a "Made by GOD" stamp onto a bone somewhere.
Since your so vastly more scientific than I am, you ought to see the eternal intelligence and artistic significance in a strand of DNA. It's obviously not that way by mere chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
WHERE is the evidence? I haven't seen anything, and no christian could provide anything useful as evidence. You keep redirecting people to bible, which is very likely is a fiction. You keep redirecting people to bible, but aside from that you can't give any "evidence". WHERE is the evidence? I'm agnostic, and my decision was to keep my position until either side provides decent argument. So far that never happened.
Of course it hasn't because you're partial to the Darwin-Dawkins-et.al. camp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
You have a weird definition of truth. I accept something as a truth when I have plenty evidence to support it.
I submit rather, "you accept it when it agrees with what you prefer."

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
You have not and obviously cannot provide it. Also, your arguments make me think that it is very likely that your god doesn't exist, but you WANT it to exist, so you keep sincerely believing in a lie. Many have mentioned confirmation bias, I think this is a case of it.
Is there an echo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
You're describing a mythical artifact. Bible isn't such book. I don't remember any passages describing WW1, WW2, Soviet union, Computer era, etc. So it does not have complete history.
I didn't say an exhaustive history. I said complete, meaning in breadth--from-to, not everything in-between. There is an exhaustive written history, which will be used in the judgment. (See Revelation)

Last edited by bluegospel; 09-25-2011 at 05:48 PM. Reason: fix quotes, restore cropped characters
 
Old 09-25-2011, 05:51 PM   #3415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
There are actually numerous specifics. The two most conspicuous that I know of are through Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah prophesied the future exile of Israel and sigificantly, the precise name, Cyrus (king of Persia), who would grant Israel's freedom almost 150 years later. Jeremiah gave the precise number of years Israel would be in exile, and that 20 years prior to their deportation. Numerous prophets foresaw Israel's exile and restoration throughout the Biblical record, but these are the two most explicit that I know.
Shocking that someone writing after the events in question would be able to prophecy them. If you like that, tomorrow I'll prophecy what I had for dinner today.

You have already granted that the Bible was "written over an extremity of years". Now, if you are trying to establish the authenticity of the Bible as the word of God, you cannot appeal to God's hand in the Bible as part of your argument. You would have to establish through reason and evidence that there is no contradiction and no plausible alternate explanations for your claims. If you do not acknowledge that Biblical scholarship has questioned the authorship of the second half of Isaiah for centuries and do not mention that the general consensus among scholars is that the "prophecy" is dated after Cyrus became king of Persia, you're being deceitful and intellectually dishonest. Alternately, you were genuinely unaware, in which case you really ought to check your claims before pronouncing their truth.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 06:04 PM   #3416
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Of course it hasn't because you're partial to the Darwin-Dawkins-et.al. camp.
Just so you know, the atheist community has no problem criticizing Dawkins when he is wrong. In fact, there was a recent incident called "Elevator-Gate" where many in the community ripped him a new one for saying stupid things. By and large, atheists are very opposed to following anyone based on fame or stature, we don't like arguments from authority whether they are religious or secular in nature.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 06:12 PM   #3417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
Just so you know, the atheist community has no problem criticizing Dawkins when he is wrong. In fact, there was a recent incident called "Elevator-Gate" where many in the community ripped him a new one for saying stupid things. By and large, atheists are very opposed to following anyone based on fame or stature, we don't like arguments from authority whether they are religious or secular in nature.
Okay, and that's very good, except in the case where there is a God, and he does attest to certain standards. In that case, his position of authority is completely valid. And when a remnant of humanity testifies unanimously what has been attested to them, and moreover to the extremity of love, provision, tolerance and kindness they've experienced in God, that evidence--very real testimony--ought not be dismissed as fiction.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 06:27 PM   #3418
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Okay, and that's very good, except in the case where there is a God, and he does attest to certain standards. In that case, his position of authority is completely valid. And when a remnant of humanity testifies unanimously what has been attested to them, and moreover to the extremity of love, provision, tolerance and kindness they've experienced in God, that evidence--very real testimony--ought not be dismissed as fiction.
Testimony isn't good evidence, nor is popularity of belief. If it was, we should also believe in alien abductions and Big Foot. Anecdotes and arguments from popularity don't get you anywhere.

Also, people since ancient Greece have understood that morality can't come from God. I think I've already posted this but see Eurythpro's Dilemma.

Lastly, even if there is a God, no one can know his opinion on the matter. Evangelicals can argue with Catholics can argue with JW's can argue with Muslims can argue with Hindus, etc until they are blue in the face, but no one can check with him on the matter. You all have your books and you all have your dogmas and, as stated, you have to already believe in them to accept them, so you're all going round and round in circles, and it's a sad, sad waste of life.

Last edited by reed9; 09-25-2011 at 06:31 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2011, 06:54 PM   #3419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
Shocking that someone writing after the events in question would be able to prophecy them.
Wrong. As I said, Isaiah prophesied 150 years prior to king Cyrus, whom he named as the one who would give Israel freedom to return. Jeremiah prophesied 20 years prior to the exile that their exile would last 70 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
You have already granted that the Bible was "written over an extremity of years". Now, if you are trying to establish the authenticity of the Bible as the word of God, you cannot appeal to God's hand in the Bible as part of your argument. You would have to establish through reason and evidence that there is no contradiction and no plausible alternate explanations for your claims.
My personal position that God co-authored the Bible is a valid variable. Valid scientific bases used by atheists are valid variables. If there is a God, science must be subject to him, not vice-versa. If there is not a God, science is subject to natural law, not vice-versa. The evidence you want is scientific. But science is one of many ways to look at the universe. Art ought not be sneezed at, nor should the spirit of a man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
If you do not acknowledge that Biblical scholarship has questioned the authorship of the second half of Isaiah for centuries and do not mention that the general consensus among scholars is that the "prophecy" is dated after Cyrus became king of Persia, you're being deceitful and intellectually dishonest. Alternately, you were genuinely unaware, in which case you really ought to check your claims before pronouncing their truth.
Chapters 1-39 of Isaiah were probably written about 700 BC, by Isaiah. Chapters 40-66 were written by Isaiah, circa 681 BC. Judah wasn't even in exile then. Josiah, one of the last kings of Judah, didn't become king until 640. The Jews weren't exiled until 586 BC. Check your sources.

Last edited by bluegospel; 09-25-2011 at 06:56 PM. Reason: remove extraneous quote
 
Old 09-25-2011, 07:12 PM   #3420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
Testimony isn't good evidence
If that's the case, every justice system that considers human testimony should be revoked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed9 View Post
nor is popularity of belief.

On what other basis is evolution established? Give me a single (exactly) piece of scientific evidence that is most conclusive --to you--of either evolution, or the absence of a living God. I guarantee it's no more conclusive that the evidence I give you of a living God--that being sensation. Furthermore, I could cite that everything needed by humanity--air, water, food, shelter just happens to be available on this earth for us; the majestic nature of the various satellites in our universe; the intricacies of microcosms & macrocosms; and on and on. And you could cite various other specimens noted by your camp. Still, you can't conclude either way, except by faith.

Last edited by bluegospel; 09-25-2011 at 07:14 PM. Reason: reword awkward construction
 
  


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