The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Thanks Guru ji.

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Well, indeed, senior members too, do have a right to troll once a while, but IMO beating flogging a dead horse isn't too exciting.

Anisha, you might not have any confidence that ShanAaali would address this (as he should), but I don't think I deserved to be accused of trolling.

Originally Posted by dugan Anisha, you might not have any confidence that ShanAaali would address this (as he should), but I don't think I deserved to be accused of trolling.

So you were serious?

The only proof Shaan Ali has given for Allah and Quran, is that Allah
exists because it is written in Quran, and it was Gabriel who verified
Quran because it is mentioned in Quran. See, this proof is what I called
a "dead horse". Oh, AFA divine whispering is concerned, he just said, AFAIR,
that a human is not wise enough to write a script like Quran :sigh:
therefore it is written by God.

And for "trolling", that was kind of joke/pun, with
zero intentions of hurting you (though I did think that you were kind of
playing with ShaanAli ).

Waiting for more proofs now!

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Believers don't know that why did this happen, so they tend to think that may be some supreme power is responsible for the same. One way can be to keep on studying science and doing research, until and unless one discovers that each and everything existing in the universe is can be proven through science or there is at least one thing that science doesn't have answer for. But, for this act, one may require a very huge amount of time, may be his full life, to get to a solution (if any). Even if he gets to some solution in the end, he would have missed all the fun in his life, in searching the solution. And IMO, anything which gives you courage to deal with hardships of life, keeps your mind calm, should be accepted for yourself.

While I personally would tend to agree with the above, this depends on what your personal priorities/interests are. If you're interested in science, then you might actually find it fascinating to pursue a scientific explanation for everything. Of course, if this is the case, then chances are you're not very religious anyway (or if you are, then you're working in a field that doesn't challenge your faith).

Note to those who are wondering WTF is with my sudden "mood turnaround" in this thread: I only get worked up about free will/determinism/"control" when I'm provoked. Any time someone posts about criticism of beliefs (free will is, pretty much by definition, a belief; you can't justify it logically or scientifically), reductionism (as I take it as being a jack@$$ and tearing apart things people hold personally, reducing them to meaninglessness), or what have you, I get pissed off. Otherwise, I'm fine for the most part.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Indeed, but as you know, ignorance is bliss. Believers don't know that why did this happen, so they tend to think that may be some supreme power is responsible for the same.

IMO, your reply is a bit off. My original statement was that some people rely on their god/religion too much and trust them too much. (IMO) For those people their faith is their doom because it limits them. And for those people it might be actually useful to see their god destroyed so they'll finally HAVE to think for themselves (because when your only option is to fix the problem, you can't hide from it anymore). This was a response to your statement in post #2563 about "frightening world where you wish for guardian". In response to that you suddenly mentioned "nearly-life-taking accident" after which you started to have "doubts", and later added a post that about "ignorance is bliss". I don't get this part of conversation. My post was about religion limiting people (there were two quite good live examples lately in this forum). How are accidents, unexplainable things and believers' opinions related to that? I see no connection.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul One way can be to keep on studying science and doing research,

There is easier way - accept that you don't know the truth (or that you might never find a it), but be ready to situation when you accidentally discover it. Faith is technically a gamble - you think you're right, but for no reason.

the argument that

that a human is not wise enough to write a script like Quran
therefore it is written by God.

is bullshit because

IF no human is wise enough to write it
THEN
no human would be able to understand it
so reading it would be a waste of time

there are a few spiritual books 100s of times more accessible and to the point than the quran
again
reading the quran is a wast of time if what you want is spiritual development

another point is that
the last person I would trust for spiritual advice is a blood soaked professional killer

Originally Posted by SigTerm My post was about religion limiting people (there were two quite good live examples lately in this forum). How are accidents, unexplainable things and believers' opinions related to that? I see no connection.

What ever I have replied was for this quote of yours,
ONLY: "People that can analyze their
holy book will probably do just fine even without god."

I was trying to explain "why" do they feel the need for a
God, even when they can analyze the book. TIA

 Originally Posted by SigTerm  
People that can analyze their holy book will probably do just fine even without god.


 Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul  
Not in my opinion. I live in a very insecure world. I feel frightened when I get
out of the house. I think of God (assuming he exists) as a
powerful Guardian, which hopefully will save me or warn me of
the dangers lying ahead, provided I follow his sayings for which
he has already given all sorts of "logics" and "reasonings".


 Originally Posted by SigTerm  
In my opinion, when you know that you can rely only on yourself, nobody else is going to help you, and that you're the only person responsible for consequences of your decisions, you become stronger. 


 Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul 
Yes, I am the one responsible for my nearly life taking accident.
But that "nearly" word starts "doubts". I couldn't find any apparent reasons
for my survival. And accident is not the only example I can give, my father
says there are cases where a "strong" prayer has many times saved him from the
boomerang situations.

 Originally Posted by SigTerm  
(IMO) When something unexplainable happens, it doesn't mean a god is responsible.

 Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul  
Indeed, but as you know, ignorance is bliss. Believers don't know that why
did this happen, so they tend to think that may be some supreme power is
responsible for the same.

 Originally Posted by SigTerm  
IMO, your reply is a bit off. My original statement was that some people rely on their god/religion too much and trust them too much.

Originally Posted by rob.rice IF no human is wise enough to write it THEN no human would be able to understand it so reading it would be a waste of time there are a few spiritual books 100s of times more accessible and to the point than the quran again reading the quran is a wast of time if what you want is spiritual development another point is that the last person I would trust for spiritual advice is a blood soaked professional killer

and what is the point in quoting that with my name,
and that too without any context? You have made it
appear as if I said that. Can you edit your post please?

the most misunderstood thing about religion is that it is only wrapper around spirituality
the saddest thing is that most religious people have kept the wrapper and thrown away spirituality

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul What ever I have replied was for this quote of yours, ONLY: "People that can analyze their holy book will probably do just fine even without god." I was trying to explain "why" do they feel the need for a God, even when they can analyze the book. TIA

IMO, even if they "feel the need for God", it doesn't mean they won't "do just fine" without god and/or religion.

Originally Posted by rob.rice the most misunderstood thing about religion is that it is only wrapper around spirituality the saddest thing is that most religious people have kept the wrapper and thrown away spirituality

Good one... thanks

Originally Posted by rob.rice the most misunderstood thing about religion is that it is only wrapper around spirituality the saddest thing is that most religious people have kept the wrapper and thrown away spirituality

Define "spirituality"? People use this word as a contrast to religion all the time, and what it seems to mean is that they reject the institutions of religion, churches and the like, but maintain the nonsense about immaterial souls and spirits and god(s). Or as this pretty typical blog says:

On a very fundamental level we can define spirituality as everything that deals with matters of our spirit (or our soul). Each and every one of us have an aspect of ourselves that is invisible but still very real. In fact this invisible part of ourselves is the very essence of our lives and spirituality is about being connected with this spiritual part while being in the physical world.

In which case it's just dis-organized religion and no better as far as respecting knowledge and reality.

If, however, you simply mean having humanistic values, ie, a respect for life, love, compassion, a concern for what Aristotle called the "good life" and human flourishing, then I have no quarrel except the choice of words.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul For the nth time I am telling you, that this thread is about -G-O-D- and -HO-L-Y-B-O-O-K-S-, ONLY. You can discuss the acts of mere mortals with someone else, I am NOT interested. Thank you for understanding.

Fine.

I give a damn to how mere mortals have distorted the religion for their own benefits. As long as, Lord Krishna and Lord Ram, have ZERO problems with schedule castes, and Lord Krishna keeps talking sense in Baghwad Gita, I don't care what other mere mortals think and do.

I appreciate this.
I just raised this because one time during my childhood I along with my schedule cast friend was peeping temple through his house window. He said he wanted to go to temple but he is not allowed. I really felt bad that time for him. I still remember that moment. Now we talk about quota, reservation, raising their social status etc. But no body so far discussed this basic right. I dont know if they have their own temple.

My point of raising that if few mortals are not following what they supposed to, we can understand they are diverted. But if that happens with most of fellow mortals, it should be treated as serious concern.
I know you don't wanna discuss other than God and Holy books, its fine with me. You dont need to reply on this.

This is a personal attack. Have I anywhere "insulted" your god in past posts? If yes, quote them here. If no, take back your claim.

My bad here. I apologize. Its not you who did that.

Go and fool someone else. You were the one talking about "stories" in other's religions, even when the other person (whom you were referring to) had NOT "claimed" anything about their God. Remember something?

I said "I never intend to hurt anyone.". That's true. I dont want to hurt. I just raised few points about hinduism, which i feel are wrong. I think everybody is doing here same. Where is the point of "claiming" here. I know you follow your religion, its means you believe in God and your holy books. I don't think you need to come out explicitly and claim anything mentioned in book. If you were referring to PrinceSharma, he himself said he don't believe in God. So there is no point in asking him anything.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul For the nth time I am telling you, that this thread is about -G-O-D- and -HO-L-Y-B-O-O-K-S-, ONLY. You can discuss the acts of mere mortals with someone else, I am NOT interested. Thank you for understanding.

Well, in that case, we can drop the subject of the Koran entirely, that was written by a man, his name was Muhammad, that's a well-established fact.

Originally Posted by dugan ShaanAli, you have asserted repeatedly that the Koran was dictated by God to Mohammed. I managed to miss the posts where you (supposedly) gave evidence for this, and I'm not going to search through the whole thread for it. So can you remind me again why I should consider this idea to be true?

As I recall, the only evidence of the divine inspiration of the Koran is that an archangel came back to Earth several times and verified it, our only source of these events is the Koran itself, therefore the Koran is true because the Koran says so, circulus in probando.

Originally Posted by brianL It's "flogging a dead horse", Ani.

"Beating" is also correct. In fact, I almost never hear anyone use "flogging."