The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by SigTerm I have a very strong impression that you don't understand the meaning of word "slave". I will not accept any religion that treats its followers as god's slaves. Even if such religion actually represents the truths, it simply means that its deity should be dealt with. If you really think this way: In this case I have a very good reason to think that Islam - as a religion - should be avoided at all costs by everybody. It doesn't matter whether your god exists or not. It doesn't matter whether your rules make sense or not. People should not blindly "obey". They should think, make decisions for themselves and deal with consequences. "Obey" is for machines without personality.

Your definition of slavery is too different. We are His slaves to obey his orders, but there is no way He hates us or hurts us. Infact He loves us more then a mother can do to her children. He protects us, guides us with correct way. We call him most kind, most merciful. The rules he mentioned in book are purely for ourself, for our society. He forced us to give charity every year 2.5% of our wealth (conditions apply). You may have problem why there is a force. Think if there is no force, nobody will give charity. And if people give charity its good for all humanity. There will be no poor, no hunger dieing people. Is that not amazing rule.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul This is very clear for me now. You mean whatever you said, is just your BELIEF w.r.t Quran. Good. Btw, Beliefs != Facts.

Thanks God you understood now.

Beliefs != Facts. is applicable to Hinduism also btw.

But then you said, Allah has no problems with people following other religions!

If religion is from God. There is no idol worship and people praying single God. I dont think God (or Allah) will have "major" issue. He is most merciful.

Allah knows best.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Your definition of slavery is too different.

As far as I know, this definition is standard one.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli but there is no way He hates us or hurts us.

And how exactly do you know that?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Infact He loves us more then a mother can do to her children.

No. If a god made people into its slaves, then it doesn't love them.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Think if there is no force, nobody will give charity.

If there's a force it is called "extortion".

Originally Posted by ShaanAli And if people give charity its good for all humanity.

No. Charity is not always good, and can be quite harmful (by encouraging freeloaders and leeches). A person should lean how to deal with problems without external help. Charity does not promote that idea.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Beliefs != Facts. is applicable to Hinduism also btw.

Absolutely,

I never claimed that Lord Ram is the knower of all, creator of this and that and whatever is written in Bhagwad Gita is very true BECAUSE it is written in Bhagwad Gita, etc, etc, etc, etc.

In fact, I even said in a previous post that a human should apply his brains before following whatever is written wherever, blindly.

You are the one claiming things in past 3-4 pages, that too in a circular logic, just because you are totally mentally BLINDED, by your faith.

ShaanAli my friend, I sympathize with you from the core of my heart for your trouble.

I know it's really hard for one to let go or question one's upbringing, especially when it has been on the grave of downsizing others beliefs, using a brute force method and followed by making assumptions of it's greatness. I'm sorry for you.

But whenever a normal human brain starts analyzing and thinking rationally and finding answers to the unsolved queries using logic and being unbiased towards any theory or belief, one can literally come out of the level of stupidity* you are representing as a whole.

$hit happens with everybody but some people would love to stay drenched in that, may be they love that smell or taste!
May you be blessed with openness of your mind and a deep understanding of logic without being biased.


*Sorry for using that word, best suits your views.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma ShaanAli my friend, I sympathize with you from the core of my heart for your trouble.

I think that if somebody someday will be able to prove some religion and existence of god, it would make sense to banish or destroy that deity so the people will finally start thinking for themselves instead of being "god's slaves" and relying on holy texts.

P.S. The discussion surely got boring lately....

It would make sense to banish or destroy that deity so the people will finally start thinking for themselves instead of being "god's slaves" and relying on holy texts.

That's a kind of generic statement. Not ALL believers think of themselves as God's "slaves". Following holy books is not a problem (IMO), if you analyze them with open eyes and "think" what is right and wrong, before following.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul That's a kind of generic statement. Not ALL believers think of themselves as God's "slaves". Following holy books is not a problem (IMO), if you analyze them with open eyes and "think" what is right and wrong, before following.

I respect that Anisha...but if YOU ARE ABLE to pick what is right or wrong from a holy book, then why do you need the holy book in the first place? It means that the ability to tell right from wrong is in you. It doesn't come from the holy book.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul That's a kind of generic statement. Not ALL believers think of themselves as God's "slaves". Following holy books is not a problem (IMO), if you analyze them with open eyes and "think" what is right and wrong, before following.

If a religion doesn't use "do as I say or suffer" rules, then I don't have a problem with it. However, in my experience religions that DO use "obey or suffer" rules normally do not explain WHY you should or shouldn't do this or that (aside from "this is sin, so don't do that or god will torture you for eternity"). I seriously don't remember bible explaining WHY "thou shall not kill", for example.
In my opinion, such religions are harmful because they do not encourage thinking. As a result, shall such religion actually discover their god, (for the sake of the followers) it would be most reasonable to kick down that religion's foundation (remove god from the picture) so the followers will be forced to think for themselves. People that can analyze their holy book will probably do just fine even without god. Please note that it is simply my own opinion caused by bluegospel's/ShaanAli's arguments - for some people religion is harmful and they need some radical shock therapy. Also, I wouldn't want a tyrant god anyway.

for some people religion is harmful and they need some radical shock therapy.

I'd like to see some support of that claim. How about the idea that some people are genetically disposed towards "evil" and religion is just one of many justifications? Abolishing religion would do nothing to clean up all the other justifications: economic interests, national and group identity, racism, sexism, public shootings in the name of some borrowed or self-invented ideology, ...
Or what about the good old marxist notion that at the heart of any conflict lie economic relationships? Muslim fundamentalism, for example, sprang up in the nineteenth century as a response to British colonialism in India.

[QUOTE=Anisha Kaul;4444823]Absolutely,

I never claimed that Lord Ram is the knower of all, creator of this and that and whatever is written in Bhagwad Gita is very true BECAUSE it is written in Bhagwad Gita, etc, etc, etc, etc.

You mean you are following a God, who dont know everything and he is not creator of all this.

FYI, Bhagwad Gita is not a holy book. Its a Epic. Not my words, you own scholars say that. And its a fact too. So the characters of Epic can not be God.

In fact, I even said in a previous post that a human should apply his brains before following whatever is written wherever, blindly.

We do that. We dont read epics and follow that blindly. Do you?

You are the one claiming things in past 3-4 pages, that too in a circular logic, just because you are totally mentally BLINDED, by your faith.

This is what you think. We dont read epics and follow that blindly. In our book everything is logical and makes sense. There were early generations when people used to read book without meaning, because there was no translation available and people was not having understanding of Arabic language. But not now. People read along with translation and understand the meaning. Faith could be blinded if whatever written in book could not be proved or proved wrong. That is not the case with Quran. Lot is written which was not known to that generation. Infact those things are getting proven now with science. When somebody read Quran his faith go strong, unlike other books.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma ShaanAli my friend, I sympathize with you from the core of my heart for your trouble. I know it's really hard for one to let go or question one's upbringing, especially when it has been on the grave of downsizing others beliefs, using a brute force method and followed by making assumptions of it's greatness. I'm sorry for you. But whenever a normal human brain starts analyzing and thinking rationally and finding answers to the unsolved queries using logic and being unbiased towards any theory or belief, one can literally come out of the level of stupidity* you are representing as a whole. $hit happens with everybody but some people would love to stay drenched in that, may be they love that smell or taste! May you be blessed with openness of your mind and a deep understanding of logic without being biased. *Sorry for using that word, best suits your views.

FYI, I never do that what I am doing here. I never questioned others before. I am not enjoying doing that, but what to do. People dont know anything even about their own religion and start asking question about others. People here master of nothing but jack for all. You are one good example. If I go as per your name, you supposed to be "pandit" means highly knowledgeable of your religion. But sad to say you dont even know ABCD of your own religion. Inspite of accepting that, you show as if you are master of everything. I dont remember you brought any point to this thread so far. Before conclude anything about anyone, study yourself first.

Originally Posted by sycamorex I respect that Anisha...but if YOU ARE ABLE to pick what is right or wrong from a holy book, then why do you need the holy book in the first place? It means that the ability to tell right from wrong is in you. It doesn't come from the holy book.

If you pick something wrong from holy book its either not a holy book Or you think thats wrong because that does not suits to you.

---------- Post added 08-17-11 at 02:57 PM ----------

Originally Posted by SigTerm If a religion doesn't use "do as I say or suffer" rules, then I don't have a problem with it. However, in my experience religions that DO use "obey or suffer" rules normally do not explain WHY you should or shouldn't do this or that (aside from "this is sin, so don't do that or god will torture you for eternity"). I seriously don't remember bible explaining WHY "thou shall not kill", for example. In my opinion, such religions are harmful because they do not encourage thinking. As a result, shall such religion actually discover their god, (for the sake of the followers) it would be most reasonable to kick down that religion's foundation (remove god from the picture) so the followers will be forced to think for themselves. People that can analyze their holy book will probably do just fine even without god. Please note that it is simply my own opinion caused by bluegospel's/ShaanAli's arguments - for some people religion is harmful and they need some radical shock therapy. Also, I wouldn't want a tyrant god anyway.

The reasons of every rules are most of times known to everyone. If you dont know something, there are several ways to gain knowledge.

Religions dont restrict you to think, infact when you read any book (holy or normal) you think. If you have doubt you have right to ask question.

Originally Posted by SigTerm As far as I know, this definition is standard one.

The Noble Quran asserts explicitly that every human being comes to Allah as a slave, including all of His Messengers. The duty of every messenger was to deliver the Message of Allah, at the order of Allah. That itself is sufficient proof that every messenger is Allah's slave. The fact that all prophets / messengers obeyed Allah to the fullest makes them the most perfectly obedient slaves of Allah. Being the slave of Allah, implying freedom from all earthly servitudes, is indeed the proudest designation for every sincere believer who has genuinely surrendered his or her purpose to Allah, The Exalted. Throughout the Quran there are any number of references where human beings have been stated as slaves of Allah. Being the slave of Allah is not at all the same as being the slave of another human being. Therefore, don't think of Allah and His laws & principles as being the same as earthly laws or on earthly terms. Anyone who denies to be the slave of Allah is only exposing their own arrogance and making provisions for their soul's final journey to Hellfire.

If there's a force it is called "extortion".

This force is not extortion. Extortion is for one own purpose. This force is for humanity.

No. Charity is not always good, and can be quite harmful (by encouraging freeloaders and leeches). A person should lean how to deal with problems without external help. Charity does not promote that idea.

You are right. It happens. Charity has to be given very carefully. We know this because we do every year. We all do take care of that.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If you pick something wrong from holy book its either not a holy book Or you think thats wrong because that does not suits to you.

Then Quran is clearly not a holy book.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm