The Faith & Religion mega Thread

It is even more illogical that God can't clearly define what is wrong|right and|or enforce rules despite it could with everything else to allow us exist. Also if God allows free will then we HAVE option to CHOOSE what we will believe in, what we will do, what we will eat, what we will drink, what we will speak etc. and therefore rules contradict free will. Speaking about rules - 10 commandments can be shortened.

GOD has defined whats wrong and whats right. Dont you have holy book?

GOD shown you the right way. You have free will. You have option to choose. Do whatever you like in this life. Hereafter result will be based on your actions. You will be answerable for them, not anyone else. Is this not simple?

If you had no free will, think of your life how it could be....

In that case you don't believe in Quran therefore another proof you lie because you started discussion as believer of Quran but now say God is something else. Either you believe something(religion in this case) 100% or not but don't lie! Otherwise you won't get respect.

Who said if I believe in Quran, I can not believe in any other holy book? If both books are from same GOD, then?
Ofcourse I follow the Quran which is last book from GOD and Bible and other holy books were earlier. In Quran lots of places Prophet Jesus and Joseph has been mentioned. (Oops hearing it first time?)
This is also one of proof book was not written by Mohammed (pbuh)

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Science would have you believe that the most complex organ in the body evolved. How can something, that is the control center for the rest of the body, evolve over millions of years?

Can you comprehend how much is millions of years? Entire human history is nothing compared to such period.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli When the other parts of the body are dependant upon it in order to even function?

Let's rephrase this : how does the clock now how to work? How does car know how to move?
Body doesn't "know" anything. It simply functions.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli But, because it is so complex, it would take more mutations (a lot more) to form. Therefore, it would take the longest to evolve.

Few hundreds of millions of years is enough for this to happen. School biology program normally covers basic organisms (hydras, earthworms, insects, frogs, fish, mammals, etc) and explain differences, similarities, etc. Your school biology book should cover evolution of heart, central nervous system, etc.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Besides, how would the brain know the other organs existed, and it needed to control them?

(IMO) Brain doesn't know that it needs to control anything. Process is automatic. So either brain controls everything, or you die.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli And how would the nervous system know what part of the brain to connect to in order the organ to work? For if the heart gets hooked to the vision center of the brain, will we see through our chest, or will we die?

It is well known that brain adapts to situations. Blind people use "vision" center for something else, and so on. If I remember correctly, in middle ages somebody performed experiment - they rewired nervous system of chicken's wing to see what would happen (exchanged nerves that fold/unfold one of the wings). Nothing happened - chicken lived and moved normally. I think this experiment was used to disprove phrenology or something.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli As you look at each part of the brain and realize that it's functions are vital. Can you see even one function you can do without?

Lobotomy. In other words, you can chop off half of your brain and you'll keep living.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli 1) Can you have eyes and see without the vision center of your brain not working?

That's called dreaming and hallucinations.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli 2) Can you heart beat without the brain stem fully evolved?

If I remember correctly heart will beat without brain, as long as there is blood (i.e. oxygen supply to heart muscle).

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Because for one vital organ to not work, when needed, would cause either sudden death, or a slow death.

Not exactly. Some people get cut into half and survive.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli And how can something evolve, mutate, or natural selection work, when the evolving subject just keeps dying?

Genetic algorithms. Principle is identical. You should also take a look at application of genetic algorithms to locomotion. Should be pretty convincing.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli So my question would be: How does the evolving subject get past the point that keeps killing it?

It doesn't - it either remains unchanged and survives, or goes extinct and gets replaced by amoebas or cockroaches.
Natural selection does not preserve anything, and humans are not exception from the rule. You shouldn't assume that somebody is preserving certain type of animal.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli GOD has defined whats wrong and whats right.

An important question (assuming a god exists): how do you know your god is right?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Science would have you believe that the most complex organ in the body evolved. How can something, that is the control center for the rest of the body, evolve over millions of years? When the other parts of the body are dependant upon it in order to even function? It would have to evolve "first" in order for all to connect to it and work. But, because it is so complex, it would take more mutations (a lot more) to form. Therefore, it would take the longest to evolve. Besides, how would the brain know the other organs existed, and it needed to control them? ...

Your argument assumes that all other parts of the body are fully developed and not evolving, simply waiting for the brain to catch up. Evolution works on the whole body, however, so evolution of the other parts of the body would proceed simulaneously with that of the brain.

Science shows us how working on one part of the brain affects others. The classic picture of the child learning to write demonstrates this: The child is sitting at a desk pencil in hand, printing on a sheet of paper. What else do you see? His tongue is sticking out of the side of his mouth and curled up. Why? Because the neural centers of the brain that control fine motor movements of the hand are next to those that conrol speech and therefore tongue and mouth movement. The intense activity in one area excites the adjacent areas and the child's tongue moves.

So when man started standing and walking upright (a hip adaptation), it freed his hands (most importantly, his thumbs) which allowed him to do more. The brain evolved to take advantage of the body's new versatility, and refinements in speech and body movements fed into one another. They in turn, excite the brain, causing further complexity and refinement in the brain.

Complexity from simplicity. Look at your feedback loops.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli GOD has defined whats wrong and whats right. Dont you have holy book?{...}

How many times will we have to ask you to proove holy books are correct in first place before reffering to them as proof of God? Maybe the original is correct but even then it doesn't proove God but simply intelligent designer which could be Aliens too since they are more possible to exist and given us information + it would explain why they are not here when we pray for them(they just not here and are in other places). Also it could be that God exists but humans were born because of Alien visit which would also proove holy books are fake or just mistranslated since they claim we were God "pet project".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShBD7GscGVw
Afterall we have enough evidence stuff from ancient times that misses real explanation that humans made them + for human reason + without help from "above" like pyramids for example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrm6bjn_o8s

{...}You have free will. You have option to choose. Do whatever you like in this life. Hereafter result will be based on your actions. You will be answerable for them, not anyone else. Is this not simple?{...}

Yes it makes same sense as that cartoon i linked before about person making robots then reprogramming them to not act like robots and then punishing them for not acting like robots..simple! Also if we are all going to hell then it doesn't matter if we believe or not(since destiny already is prewritten for us) but if we will get selected by our actions not beliefs then it again doesn't matter.

{...}Who said if I believe in Quran, I can not believe in any other holy book? If both books are from same GOD, then?{...}

Elementary logic says it. Religions are not same in all human society but split up in versions which differ so either you stick to some religion or not but you can't have both or more at same time. God given book is only one right(original nontranslated)(?) then there is no real reason to support variations since truth can be just one.

Originally Posted by dugan {...}Read this instead:{...}

Content matters not name. How do you know your suggested page is not fake too in that case. Also here is nice explanation version for Evolution.

Originally Posted by Arcane Content matters not name. How do you know your suggested page is not fake too in that case.

I never said anything about "name" so stop making strawman arguments.

The answer, of course, is this: the content of "my suggested page" is consistent with reality and can be independently verified. This is not the case for Conservapedia. BTW, the extreme level of closed-mindedness, cowardice and laziness you're demonstrating here ("your suggested page" obviously means "I didn't bother clicking") is something I'd associate with Bluegospel, not you.

I really hate to be arguing with you about this because your points are completely correct. Your choice of sources definitely needs improvement though.

Case in point:

Also here is nice explanation version for Evolution.

I got as far as the summary. The speaker is a moron who thinks that positive thinking cures cancer (yes, I've heard of him). There is absolutely no reason to ever listen to a word he says. Especially since the video is not labelled as an explanation for evolution, not labelled as scientific, and is introduced by what looks like a salesman.

A "nice" explanation for evolution really needs a book. Carl Zimmer's Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea is the most entertaining, accessible and lavishly illustrated one I've seen so far.

Or if you need an online source, this is a good one:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-...o-biology.html

Now, if you want to ask me again how I know that that page is "not fake", the answer is "because I've read it, and its content meets my standards. I've also read other things by the same organization, and they've consistently met my standards too."

Originally Posted by dugan {...}I really hate to be arguing with you about this because your points are completely correct. Your choice of sources definitely needs improvement though{...}

I'm not arguing just saying conservapedia is not complete lies too and yes lets chill because we all are in for truth about our origins not to fight with each other. I am just beeing like positive troll that instead of negative one actually contributes to topic. That and also because i can with my free time + i have "sick" interest in this(nickname itself should tell) is why i use different sources so that people can see most of stuff before jump to conclusions. However believers only repeat themselves "Book says this and that and this one too!" before analysis of book or considering more exploration. Science needs both valid and invalid example evidence to sort stuff out.

Yeah and if I gave 12 different priests, rabbis or whatever the same verse in the bible,Koran or whatever book I would undoubtedly get 12 different perceptions on said matter (even giving the same verse to EACH for a sermon )!!! If these books were made by some omnipotent being don't you feel we'd get the same results??? Furthermore If there is a"God" why are there so many different holy books??? Personally I believe more toward the big bang theory being more believable!!!

Originally Posted by bluegospel --Revelation 7:4-17

Originally Posted by ShaanAli GOD has defined whats wrong and whats right. Dont you have holy book?

I'd like to get an answer to following question. Even *if* a god exists (currently there's no proof) and even *if* whatever holy book you use has divine origin (currently there's no proof), how can you be sure that whatever is written within holy book is not a lie or a result of divine mistake/miscalculation? Why do you think that a holy text can be trusted if it has divine origin?

As I understand it, a god should be capable of making mistakes and lying, and it is reasonable to expect that something like a god has absolutely no reason to care about humans. Most people kill an insect without a second thought. For a god, you should as insignificant as an insect is for you. So how do you know that (for example) your god (if it exists) is not toying with you for its own amusement by imposing rules and promising "heaven"?

Originally Posted by jay73 That's just not right. Look at what follows: The verse in bold has the same type of adverbial clause introduced by for ("for they are virgins"/"for they are blameless"). In any poetic text, such parallels are not coincidental; they emphasize identity of meaning. If the first verse could be considered ambiguous (but I don't even think it is), the closing one is much less so. Therefore, to get at the proper meaning of the former, one needs to consider the latter. That would show that "for they are blameless" is not a more specific reformulation of "and in their mouth no lies was found". Firstly, the two clauses fulfill different syntactic functions: the first is a coordinated clause ("and...") while the second one is a subordinated clause ("for..."). But clauses with different functions do not carry the same information. Take "And I'm staying in for it's cold today". Would you claim that "for it's cold" is synonymous with "I'm staying in?". Secondly, note the enallage (shift of voice and tense), just as in the first verse: from a passive simple past ("was found in their mouth") to an active simple present ("are blameless"). Why not "they were blameless" given the past tense in "was found"?? Because the formal difference implies the addition of new information instead of reformulation. Thirdly, if we do think in terms of a generic formulation followed by a more specific re-formulation, the explanation breaks down completely: "for they are blameless" is less specific than "no lies in their mouth", not more. Interpretation of the closing verse puts the first one in its proper perspective: "for they are virgins" provides a reason, not merely a synonym.To claim as a last defence that the two verses should not be connected in that way flies in the face not only of the basic rules of grammar and composition but of the characteristic rhetoric that is used throughout the Bible. Q.E.D.

I honestly don't know what the purpose of all this was. First, you start out by disagreeing with me, only to end up agreeing with me (see bolded text), and slay a straw man argument nobody ever made (see red text). And none of this relates one bit to the original problem of your argument, which is that you have no basis for asserting that these are not to be taken literally.

The shift in tense (are virgins, are blameless) makes sense if you realize that everyone was a virgin at some point, but most of us gave it up. Ditto blamelessness.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I dont know if Quran says anywhere earth is flat (show me reference). Instead Allah said different occasions, the earth has been spread out like bed.

I gave you this link once before, apparently you didn't look at it.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/qu...ence/long.html

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Science would have you believe that the most complex organ in the body evolved. How can something, that is the control center for the rest of the body, evolve over millions of years? When the other parts of the body are dependant upon it in order to even function? It would have to evolve "first" in order for all to connect to it and work. But, because it is so complex, it would take more mutations (a lot more) to form. Therefore, it would take the longest to evolve. Besides, how would the brain know the other organs existed, and it needed to control them?

Or, they could all evolve together... as evolution has proven. A simple brain is plenty to control a simple organism with simple organs, and as the organism grows more complex, so does its brain. We see this pattern throughout nature.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli And how would the nervous system know what part of the brain to connect to in order the organ to work? For if the heart gets hooked to the vision center of the brain, will we see through our chest, or will we die? And if the nervous system worked so well with connections, everyone that becomes paralyzed, would become better. But they don't. Which proves that someone had to route the nerves through the body, to the correct organs, so they will function.

I'm afraid you're just not understanding how adaptive the brain is. If a neural path is altered, the brain recognizes that it's been altered, and adjusts accordingly. So if you rewire your eye to your chest, it recognizes that there's a chest there now.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Nerves can grow about an inch per month, but their path is not guided. Anyone who has had severe nerve damage knows this.

What?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli So as you look at each part of the brain, see if you can determine the order of evolution that would work for both the organs it controls, and how the brain would have had to evolve to control them. You will soon start to see that a quick creation, by a creator, would be the only way it would work.

Nope. You're just demonstrating that you don't know how evolution works, and concluding that, based on that misunderstanding, God did it.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli As you look at each part of the brain and realize that it's functions are vital. Can you see even one function you can do without? In the evolution process, this is where the problem lies. Over the billions of years of evolution, the brain at different points was not fully functional, until fully evolved. And with all the main organ functions that it controls, the evolving human had to do without some of these that would be dependant upon for survival, but did not work. Example: 1) Can you have eyes and see without the vision center of your brain not working? 2) Can you heart beat without the brain stem fully evolved? 3) Can you breathe without the brain stem fully evolved? 4) Will your pancreas know how much insulin to inject into the body at any given time? 5) etc....

I like how your examples of things that are actually vital (heartbeat, breath, pancreatic function) are all functions performed in the brain stem, the crudest part of the brain that evolved first, and the only higher-order function you mention (vision) is not necessary for survival. It's like you're making my argument for me.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Can you comprehend how much is millions of years? Entire human history is nothing compared to such period.

Woooooooooo You mean here, any planet like earth if there is nothing just water... leave for millions of years, you will have Human being "automatically" produced along with hundred thousand different type of creatures. to evolution scientists and its supporters.... They are taking people on ride..... so enjoy the ride..... nothing much to say.....

Let's rephrase this : how does the clock now how to work? How does car know how to move? Body doesn't "know" anything. It simply functions.

Clock, Car has a designer/producer.... who is the designer/producer of body?
Clock has battery behind... Car has fuel.... what body has?

Wherever are you sitting right now look around, is there anything you see which got produced "automatically"???

Few hundreds of millions of years is enough for this to happen. School biology program normally covers basic organisms (hydras, earthworms, insects, frogs, fish, mammals, etc) and explain differences, similarities, etc. Your school biology book should cover evolution of heart, central nervous system, etc.

Whatever you study in school is 100% correct? I have studied in my school about Hinduism and their plenty of gods, should i accept that true?

(IMO) Brain doesn't know that it needs to control anything. Process is automatic. So either brain controls everything, or you die.

You mean here brain doesn't know what it has to control? My dear friend If there is slight miscommunication or signal missing to rest part of body, that leads to paralysis, coma, brain haemorrhage or sudden death.

It is well known that brain adapts to situations.

And how brain got that capability? Automatically? Over million of years.... once again.

Lobotomy. In other words, you can chop off half of your brain and you'll keep living.

Read yourself same link.... how many survived.......

If I remember correctly heart will beat without brain, as long as there is blood (i.e. oxygen supply to heart muscle).

You seems to be 100% sure about this..... buddy who will instruct your heart to pump to get oxygen and blood....???

Not exactly. Some people get cut into half and survive.

Oh really..... vertical or horizontal cut?

An important question (assuming a god exists): how do you know your god is right?

If HE is not right, HE is not GOD. simple.

Originally Posted by moxieman99 Your argument assumes that all other parts of the body are fully developed and not evolving, simply waiting for the brain to catch up. Evolution works on the whole body, however, so evolution of the other parts of the body would proceed simulaneously with that of the brain. Science shows us how working on one part of the brain affects others. The classic picture of the child learning to write demonstrates this: The child is sitting at a desk pencil in hand, printing on a sheet of paper. What else do you see? His tongue is sticking out of the side of his mouth and curled up. Why? Because the neural centers of the brain that control fine motor movements of the hand are next to those that conrol speech and therefore tongue and mouth movement. The intense activity in one area excites the adjacent areas and the child's tongue moves. So when man started standing and walking upright (a hip adaptation), it freed his hands (most importantly, his thumbs) which allowed him to do more. The brain evolved to take advantage of the body's new versatility, and refinements in speech and body movements fed into one another. They in turn, excite the brain, causing further complexity and refinement in the brain. Complexity from simplicity. Look at your feedback loops.

So human being reached to stage where there will be no "development" Or still there are chance to become superman and fly????

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Woooooooooo You mean here, any planet like earth if there is nothing just water... leave for millions of years, you will have Human being "automatically" produced along with hundred thousand different type of creatures.

No. Evolution says that, given the right recipe (known as primordial soup), life will naturally emerge. But to suggest that life will necessarily be human is absurd. Evolution is a dynamic and chaotic process influenced by unique environmental forces that cannot be 100% duplicated, and therefore, its ultimate results cannot be 100% duplicated.

We're also finding that there's a lot of latitude in what determines the "right recipe," because we're finding life forms in places here on Earth where everything we thought we knew told us that life was impossible... complex ecosystems on the ocean floor completely detached from the sun, bacterias living in sulfur acid pools, under the Antarctic ice shelf, in the deepest caves, etc.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Woooooooooo You mean here, any planet like earth if there is nothing just water... leave for millions of years, you will have Human being "automatically" produced along with hundred thousand different type of creatures.

Incorrect. Leave planet alone for few hundreds of millions of years and you may get lifeform that is most suitable for this planet. Nothing is guaranteed. There is no warranty of getting many lifeforms. Maybe there will be only one lifeform. There is no warranty that lifeform will be sentient (for all practical purposes perfect creatures on Earth are ants, cockroaches and amoebas - they remained unchanged for a long time).

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Clock has battery behind...

Has spring-driven clocks became so rare?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli what body has?

Fuel. Food + Water + Oxygen.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Whatever you study in school is 100% correct?

You can verify whatever is written in biology schoolbook using scalpel and microscope - if you feel like cutting down living things. So... can you provide Hindu god to study?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You mean here brain doesn't know what it has to control?

Yes. You're software. Brain is hardware. Hardware runs you. Hardware understands nothing. Same applies to computer - no part of computer knows what it is doing (meaning of work) - it simply responds to signal.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli My dear friend If there is slight miscommunication or signal missing to rest part of body, that leads to paralysis, coma, brain haemorrhage or sudden death.

You're underestimating human body and overestimating role of brain. To get fatal result you need major miscommunications, otherwise all humans would've gone extinct long ago. Unlike machines, organic creatures can repair themselves to some extent. System that ceases to work after a minor failure have no chance of survival.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli And how brain got that capability? Automatically? Over million of years.... once again.

You should research genetic algorithms and neural networks (I already gave you a video for illustration). Those ideas are based on evolution and they work in practice, so I see no reason to doubt the theory when it is applied to living organisms.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You seems to be 100% sure about this..... buddy who will instruct your heart to pump to get oxygen and blood....???

As far as I know, you can put heart in a jar and it will keep beating, because "circuitry" that keeps it beating is located on the heart, and not in a brain. If I remember correctly, there are special cells that produce "beating" signal. It actually should be well known. I.e. brain does not send command for every heartbeat, but it does control heartbeat rate. Dead person can have beating heart. If I remember correctly, in middle ages somebody was "lucky" enough to find a corpse with beating heart during autopsy (heartbeat was extremely low and could not sustain life, though). IMO, you should review your school's biology course or read a few books about medicine.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If HE is not right, HE is not GOD. simple.

I don't buy it.
A sentient being requires ability to make mistakes in order to learn. Either god is inferior to humans and cannot learn or IT can make mistakes and whatever rule god has made can be result of such mistake. Also, you haven't said how do you know that god doesn't lie to humans.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli So human being reached to stage where there will be no "development" Or still there are chance to become superman and fly????

It is not about development or becoming "super". There is no goal in evolution and humanity is irrelevant to natural selection. If people will go extinct, nothing major will happen. You won't understand it if you keep thinking about "goal", "superior creatures" and intelligent design. It is all about survival. Development is a side effect.