The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by brianL I can't be bothered finding the chapters & verses, but Jesus changing the water to wine at the wedding. If he'd disapproved he would have changed the wine into water, surely? And doesn't Paul recommend taking a little wine?

If this is true, you should understand during that time drinking alcohol was very common and there was no way people could easily give up that. During Jesus prophecy GOD ordered to reduce that and during Mohammed, it was totally forbidden. (this is logical atleast to me)

If you know from your inside consuming alcohol is not good, you should avoid that... This is nothing but controlling your nerves over your desires.

Originally Posted by SigTerm So if everything is gray, then the only choice to do nothing? Great. Laws (state/country/international) are written in books. There are people that break the laws. Conclusion: books are not that important.

Tomorrow break 4-5 laws which are written in your country law books and for you they are not important.

Originally Posted by SL00b If you really believe this is effective, you should try using the "Because I said so" argument with a small child some time, and see how that works out. It's even less successful for adults.

Rules should have logic. If there is logic, person should adhere that.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Tomorrow break 4-5 laws which are written in your country law books and for you they are not important.

Was that supposed to be a personal attack?
My point was that writing laws down into book does not guarantee that people will follow it.

Another problem is that suspect that almost every person has broken a law during their lifetime - there are no saints.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Rules should have logic. If there is logic, person should adhere that.

Bad idea.

For example, one way to stop all wars is to nuke the planet and kill everybody. No people - no conflicts. It is logical. So, will you adhere to that?

Originally Posted by brianL Where in the Koran does it say that people who commit suicide and mass murder are guaranteed a place in Paradise? Where in the Koran does it say that women who are raped should be flogged? What kind of god writes a book that condones or encourages that sort of atrocity?

Do you really think Quran (or any holy book) will have these?

You are not allowed to hurt you body. Suicide is totally forbidden in Islam.

Quran says: If you kill any human being its same as killing entire humankind. Further it says, saving a single human being is same like saving entire humankind.

Quran also says: Before you pass on any information further, verify that first.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma And though I'm not at all against the followers including ShaanAli, I'm totally against his thoughtless preaching without answering the straight forward questions by other members including me.

I am not preaching my dear friend. While answering you guys questions, actually I am learning. Infact I am learning about other religions also. Did you know in one of your holy vedas, Prophet Jesus and Mohammed is mentioned?

Originally Posted by SigTerm IMO, you're judging a very old book using moral laws that are younger than book. Human rights, equal rights didn't exist at the moment the book has been created. Disgusting or not, you can't really use morals to disprove religion, since morals are not absolute - they change with time, god doesn't have to be good or moral, and normally you don't apply a law to events that happened before the law has been created. Bible had a lot of similar passages that look ridiculous to many people at current time. The problem comes from "holy text" status - if you try to apply ancient laws to modern times, it won't work (and you'll be digging your own grave by doing it). I'm not sure how any religion is supposed to handle that - without additional prophets or divine interventions the only choice for any religion would be to try and hide old laws that are not exactly acceptable by today's moral standards.

You are right, but in this case either books like the bible/quran are the words of god(s) or they are just works of fiction that should be updated as time goes by. One or the other.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You are not allowed to hurt you body. Suicide is totally forbidden in Islam. Quran says: If you kill any human being its same as killing entire humankind.

I can't recall any strong condemnation by any muslim of any atrocity carried out by any suicide bomber. After 9/11, on the TV news, I saw crowds of them cheering, singing, and dancing with joy in several Islamic countries. So why should we believe you, rather than what we've seen and read about?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli {...}Quran says{...}Quran also says{...}

Don't you have your own brain and heart to listen to and make decisions on your own? God didn't make humans intelligent and didn't give them common sence to be mind-controlled IF it exists right? So why this triping again in own belief system? When you buy for example socks in shop you also ask details to holy books? Quran or any other man made story book isn't incontestable proof source and speaking about truth just think about these quotes for second if you have open mind:
"You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth." Michael Levy
Yes you will probably argue - "But God creates truth!!111oneoneeleven!" Wrong. Everything creates truth. For example Society and it's laws is truth made by humans. Video games, movies, books etc. share universe which was created by human imagination - humans set laws and decided how that universe works but when it comes to universe where humans live they don't create truth in global scale. They didn't create facts that we need sleep, eat, live in family to grow up healthy, go to toilet and similar. Same applies for God. If it does exist then there is automatically higher system above it or at least system which it can't change because God system also has universal laws - it could change Solar system laws like holy books describe but it can't change facts about God system itself.
"There is no god higher than truth." Mahatma Gandhi
"God gave man the truth. The Devil came along and said, 'Let me organize it for you'. And he called it religion."
Btw important difference between these "also written by human" quotes and your "holy book" written text is - these quotes don't contain nonsence or BS so to speak and they don't have intention to control people.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Rules should have logic. If there is logic, person should adhere that.

Bingo! Quoted so you can't delete this later. Truth is - religion & logic = strangers with nothing in common.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Rules should have logic. If there is logic, person should adhere that.

Indeed. And the problem is, there's no logic in, "Because I said so." And there's certainly no logic in, "Because you'll go to hell." That's not logic, that's a threat.

Originally Posted by brianL If you can't see what's wrong in those verses, then that proves that our low opinion of Islam is correct.

Originally Posted by sycamorex I think that says it all.

Do you guys really think A crime like Rape will be allowed in a religion like Islam, where its been ordered for man to lower his gaze when he sees any other women.

Before you reach to any conclusion understand the context when that verse was revealed. Slavery was very common during that time and women after war used to become public property.

Although slavery was not outright condemned, Muslims argue that this is because slavery was a vital part of the world during the time of the revelation and it would be difficult for society to end it immediately. Muslims (apologetics) argue that God sought to incrementally push for the abolishment of slavery through personal humanitarian initiatives. For example, "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."[2] Also when an individual erred such as missing a day of fasting they were to free a slave. Slavery was not encouraged, i.e there was no command to take slaves. On the contrary, there were commands that freeing slaves is a righteous act. Therefore this set the emancipation of slaves in motion. While this emancipation was occurring the Qur'an and the prophet established rights for slaves that were not before enjoyed as well as limiting the source of slavery to only prisoners of war.

It was a practice and tradition of the Prophet Muhammad to release from captivity those females who would face the risk of being disgraced or humiliated as a result of being held as captives or slaves, and those who came from respected backgrounds that were known for their philanthropic contributions to the general masses, regardless if their charitable deeds benefited muslims or non-muslims.

On many occasions, Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67. In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.

Originally Posted by brianL I can't recall any strong condemnation by any muslim of any atrocity carried out by any suicide bomber.

Top Saudi cleric wants bombers `burned in hell'

I actually suspect that there are many other examples, but they're not reaching us because of the Western media's selection filter.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli If this is true, you should understand during that time drinking alcohol was very common and there was no way people could easily give up that. During Jesus prophecy GOD ordered to reduce that and during Mohammed, it was totally forbidden. (this is logical atleast to me)

Although slavery was not outright condemned, Muslims argue that this is because slavery was a vital part of the world during the time of the revelation and it would be difficult for society to end it immediately.

Isn't that a contradiction? On the one hand you say that people had no way to easily give up drinking, because it was very common. Nonetheless it simply was forbidden by your god. On the other hand you say that slavery was very common and couldn't be easily dismissed, so your god pushed it one by one. Why didn't he simply forbid that? May it be that the benefits of slavery where so big that no one would have converted to Islam if it was forbidden?

Originally Posted by SigTerm Was that supposed to be a personal attack? My point was that writing laws down into book does not guarantee that people will follow it.

Nope. Infact I am having personal attacks.

You yourself said, "Conclusion: Books are not that important". I said break the rules and see the result.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Another problem is that suspect that almost every person has broken a law during their lifetime - there are no saints.

Agree. But it does not mean you keep doing that. If you break law, probably GOD will forgive you if you seek his forgiveness. But your country police will not. So take care.

Originally Posted by SigTerm For example, one way to stop all wars is to nuke the planet and kill everybody. No people - no conflicts. It is logical. So, will you adhere to that?

Sorry. Killing is not allowed. Find some other way.

Originally Posted by brianL I can't recall any strong condemnation by any muslim of any atrocity carried out by any suicide bomber. After 9/11, on the TV news, I saw crowds of them cheering, singing, and dancing with joy in several Islamic countries. So why should we believe you, rather than what we've seen and read about?

First of all: you see what you are shown.
I have read several "american and british" articles where it was proved that it was insiders job for 9/11. I have not inquired myself, I can not say confidently who did that. Nor you !!
Al-Qaida was born by American Govt. You should know the history.

To know any religion, read the scripts, dont look at their followers. Followers are following or not. How you know? This applies to any religion.