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"already saved and always were"? Saved from what? That's something that never made much sense to me.
Hallowed are the Ori. Hours of "Prostration" per day, sort of sounds like what Muslims do everyday. Does the church of the SubGenius have "Prostration"? How do they develop the fervent believers without the self-abuse part?
Firm believer: Christian/Latter-Day Saint ("Mormon").
I can understand about people not wanting to be bugged about religion, and I respect anybody who tells me so, and try to keep from mentioning it to them. On the other hand, I hope that others who feel this way can understand that from my point of view (like many others), I see information about religion (specific or otherwise) as something that should be freely available to everyone, so long as it's done politely, and without trying to force anyone into it. If a missionary knocks on your door and you're not interested, the best answer (in keeping with politeness and common decency) is "I'm not interested" or something very similarly direct and polite.
Having been an athiest, an agnostic, a non-specifically-denominated Christian, a Mormon, and a full-time missionary, I can understand several sides of this issue. The main thing I've learned from all of these stages in my life is that religion is a personal choice, and that it doesn't hurt to offer a belief system or politely reject one (all theological doctrines aside). It hurts quite a bit, however to rudely or militantly gripe/protest/heckle/oppress anybody for their religious beliefs, so long as they aren't actively using them as an excuse to cause harm (terrorists and such). It causes just as much or more harm to try to *force* your religion (or lack thereof) onto somebody else in an oppressive or militant fashion. Again, freedom to believe or not however one wishes is paramount.
Typically agnostics understand this, as do some athiests and religionists. For those religionists who don't get this, however, consider the following:
In all the scriptures you've read (Christian or otherwise), what's the one thing that God has absolutely refused to take away under any circumstances, even if a person somehow manages to call down His wrath in the most extreme ways? Not life. Not property. Not health. Not freedom from bondage (as in slavery or national occupation). He's refused to take away free will. Some religions hold that the devil and his minions were cast down for trying to do just that. Depending on who you ask, they were trying to make people obey God whether they wanted to or not.
If you want to be like the one you worship, then let people choose for themselves and don't judge them harshly for it. You don't know their life stories, and can't imagine with any accuracy whether they have had experiences (usually not of their own doing) that bias them against religion. Will they get plenty of opportunities to choose for themselves? Absolutely! Present the information if you wish, but don't do it forcefully.
A bit of a rant, I know, but I think it needed to be said.
I am an agnostic atheist. I live in a country which is predominantly Orthodox Christian. So far I have lived a very good life (there have been no gruesome events which have "turned" me into an atheist).
I don't know what I'd call myself. I believe that there may be some sort of higher power, but I don't believe that we measly humans know what this higher power may want with us (if it wants anything at all, or if we're just its toys); and I believe that if there is a higher power, this being probably doesn't give us a second thought, because we humans are nothing compared to the rest of the universe (note: infinite). I also think modern organized religions are a complete crock, and their view of 'god' is a selfish, evil being.
LOL I hadn't checked the date on the last post before posting. I guess Jesus isn't the only thing that gets resurrected sometimes... :-D (Happy Easter, BTW.)
tacticalbread (great name!), I think you're the definition of an agnostic. "Don't know one way or the other; not picking a side of the fence." Personally, I don't think there's anything doctrinally wrong with agnosticism from a religious perspective (contrary to the opinions of most religious folks), so long as one keeps an open mind (not that one necessarily has to convert one way or another). I think that a lot of heavily religious folks (including some of my own religion), as well as a lot of atheists would be better-off contemplating the universe from an agnostic perspective, as it opens up the mind to more possibilities for truth than one has as a flaming, militant dogmatist (atheist or religious). Just my 2 cents, though.
Anyway, something interesting to think about. I find it somewhat refreshing to hear/read computer/technical types talking about religion, as it seems to be grossly underrepresented in most discussions among such people. Of course, in a thread about BASH scripting or kernel compiling, it's not exactly on-topic. :-)
I find it somewhat refreshing to hear/read computer/technical types talking about religion, as it seems to be grossly underrepresented in most discussions among such people
...and thank god for that
Have a nice long weekend to all who have a long weekend.
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