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Old 11-28-2005, 05:50 PM   #16
alien3456
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I thought this was going to be a discussion about that stupid conspiracy theory that Google is gathering information and taking over the internet. Oh well.

Anyway google is just fine to use. If you search for common problems you can usually find the right answer. Sometimes you'll even find threads of your problem that have been sitting here on LQ. I think it's just personal preference. Some people feel that their situation needs explaining or they would rather get an answer directed to them. Or they found the solution already and would just like some clarity before they go and try it. Before I ask a question, I always search the forum I am about to post the problem on. Google gets in there somewhere, but it all depends on the problem I suppose.

I don't mean to sound rude at all, but for a lot of forums people feel the need to post for nearly situation. It's a form of addiction that I see in lots of forums, where people just post their thoughts, helpful or not. Some can spend hours just reading entire threads. Haven't been using these forums enough to see someone rambling from post to post, because so far I've only come for the wonderful solutions to my newbie linux problems. I'm not telling anyone to stop everything and conform to my basic thoughts. It's a little annoying when a forum user complains about something and expects everyone to agree, but I'm really only offering advice. If you see something that has been asked a million times, you don't have to post and tell them that. If it's so common, then it shouldn't be hard to point them in the right direction. Google isn't that helping hand, but you could do a google search and just as easily find that solution. I suppose I'm agreeing with the OP basically.

I don't mean to create a philosophy on how the internet and it's message boards should work. But message board users should consider what they are adding to a topic where someone needs to come to resolve. I like to think of message boards as a conversation, because they have so many similarities. In a conversation, you have different subjects that you talk about to different people. That's close to how forums are divided into sections, where you'll find different people than another subject. Threads are also called topics, and in conversations you obviously have topics. And when someone in a thread says we're going off topic, is when a conversation really goes off topic. Anyway that analogy is simple to understand, which brings me to an example. Okay so a freshman at a university might go to a graduate student and ask how to get to a certain building. The graduate student, being there a long time and expecting most people to know, says to go to their student handbook and look it up (like saying RTFM or google it). Sure, that is a solution after all. But maybe the freshman wants help getting there from where he is at. Maybe he used the handbook and ended up in the wrong spot.

I'm a little wired. I went fairly off topic... Heh, that's a little hypocritical of me.

Some forums are just really unfriendly, rambling, loaded with addicted forum users, and thus lacking useful information. These forums seem far from it to me. Just sharing how I feel about some people and how they use the net.

Last edited by alien3456; 11-28-2005 at 05:53 PM.
 
Old 11-28-2005, 06:39 PM   #17
Franklin
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I usually find that someone else has already done a far better and more complete job of explaining the answer to what the person has asked than I ever could. If I don't know the answer, but I am curious about the problem, I google it. If I get what looks like an answer I post the link.

I really don't get the percieved problem here.

I suppose if I was really nasty and called the person a lazy shit that might be a bit over the top. But really, people do often need to be gently reminded that they are usually not the first person to have a particular problem.

As many people seem to NEVER google, it is hard to know who has and who has not unless you state that you have.

I will also admit that I sometimes fail miserably at googling and have recieved the same reply - "this was the 2nd hit blah blah...". I does bug me for an instant, but I don't really care though because I just got the answer didn't I?

I always say, the most important requirement for forum participation - particularly usenet - is a thick skin.

HAND
 
Old 11-28-2005, 06:50 PM   #18
Mega Man X
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I think newbies could help a little bit with this issue too. I mean, I think half of my posts in this forum was either answering about Java, Emulators configuring YaST, nVidia and indeed, sending Ubuntu users to the Unofficial Ubuntu guide.

Well, the whole point is, once the newbie got the answer and got his/her problem fixed, he/she could try to help out other members with the same problem. Most of them don't do that and care more about fixing their own problems than helping others (at least for a while and that's understandable). The reasons why I think an "inexperienced" linux user should try to use what he learned to help is:

1 - It works as a review to themselves, helping to memorize the steps to fix a given issue. A forum is about sharing after all (just like Linux) and it feels good to give something back, I promise you

2 - Old members are tired of answering the same old questions over and over again. If more newbies would jump in and give a hand it would be nice and they have already learned how to do that.

3 - From my experience, the best way to learn something is when teaching somebody. Even if you are not 100% spot on, both you and the person you are trying to help will learn something out of it. An "oldie" might then get interested in the thread and give a hand as well...

And how pointing somebody to google and asking to search the forum first is more rude then totally ignoring a member is beyond my comprehension, sorry :\

Last edited by Mega Man X; 11-28-2005 at 06:51 PM.
 
Old 11-28-2005, 07:01 PM   #19
slackhack
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Quote:
Originally posted by alien3456
If you see something that has been asked a million times, you don't have to post and tell them that. If it's so common, then it shouldn't be hard to point them in the right direction.
that's kind of an interesting logic. if it's been asked a million times, it's wrong to tell them that, but if it's been asked a million times, it's okay to ask it again.

and if it's so common, why do they even need to ask at all? bandwidth and archive storage space aren't free, you know. maybe you'd like to donate some server space and bandwidth for LQ to use, since it's no big deal to ask the same question over and over.
 
Old 11-28-2005, 07:38 PM   #20
Franklin
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Quote:
And how pointing somebody to google and asking to search the forum first is more rude then totally ignoring a member is beyond my comprehension, sorry :\
"man bash is your friend"

THAT would be rude.

 
Old 11-28-2005, 07:41 PM   #21
alien3456
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I wouldn't call it my logic; more like my manners. Telling someone they are asking about something common, miniscule, heavily debated, etc. without actually helping is a rude response to someone simply looking for help. Many teachers teach the same thing every semester, or even more than once a day. Imagine them telling their students that they shouldn't ask help from them because the book has all of the information and they are sick of teaching it. Or (under the "google it" topic) the teacher told the kids to go to the library and find a book about it, when the teacher knows damn well which book has it. Well here, you're just a volunteer, not a teacher. You don't have to teach. You don't even have to help. You can be the one that is looking to others for help the entire time here. But if you want to respond to someone looking for help, telling them to go look for help (google it) is repetitive. If someone asks for help and someone tells them to google it, what if the person is using very bad wording? As simple as search engines are, some people just don't use good search terms. They might the ones that explain their problem here. There are too many reasons why someone might use a forum instead of searching for it. If the answer to their exact problem is documented, I wouldn't mind getting a link to the solution without much explanation. I would, however, mind getting a link to what is probably the most often visited page on the internet.

My logic would be that the first thing I myself would do is to look it up before asking. Not everyone is the same though, as I'm talking about the people that just ask questions at, get this, "Linux Questions". Maybe it should be called "Linux Last Resort - If its documented, don't ask!" under your logic.

Quote:
And how pointing somebody to google and asking to search the forum first is more rude then totally ignoring a member is beyond my comprehension, sorry :\
I would rather get one solid reply than 2 replies; one useless, the other helpful. Should everyone post "Sorry, I don't know the answer... but hey try this search engine!" in every single topic they were about to ignore?

Last edited by alien3456; 11-28-2005 at 07:48 PM.
 
Old 11-28-2005, 11:31 PM   #22
cs-cam
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SitePoint forums have a [google] vBCode setup. if someone asks a stupid question you could just type [google]fstab ntfs[/google] and leave it at that. Now if they introduced that here you Poster Rights activists would be seriously on the losing side.
 
Old 11-29-2005, 12:41 AM   #23
KimVette
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Quote:
Originally posted by 27307SB
If you think some of the questions are that stupid,
Because all too often people are just plain LAZY.

They want to be spoon-fed step by step the solution to their "urgent help me now" problems RIGHT NOW, and ignore the fact that say, "what distro is right for me" or "my X is broken" is already posted THREE TIMES ALREADY on the very same day. Does "which distro" REALLY need to come up every {censor} day?

Does someone REALLY need to ask "How do I partition my hard drive" when it's been asked 18,282,261 times already, when clicking the pretty "search" button (above) could gain them immediate access to countless step-by-step tutorials on this very site, or heck, just point the lazy slob at "man fdisk" or "man cfdisk"

No, search is there for a reason, and n00b or not one should be mindful of netiquette. Some people need a good firm kick in the. . . butt. . . and do their own footwork sometimes - at least do the basics on your own. If you cannot show other forum members that tiny shred of respect and decency, why should ANYONE help YOU with your so-called "urgent" questions?
 
Old 11-29-2005, 01:08 AM   #24
primo
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
Because all too often people are just plain LAZY.

They want to be spoon-fed step by step the solution to their "urgent help me now" problems RIGHT NOW, and ignore the fact that say, "what distro is right for me"
When someone asks "what distro is good?", this person is actually asking for people's experience, aside from the expected fanatical viewpoints. (To this day, I don't find a single distribution that's 100% perfect and sometimes I feel the need to ask it). But when they ask "what distro is good for me?", they never realize the tremendous injustice of a question like this and they feel offended if someone points him to good, relevant sources such as distrowatch.org and they do not feel that an answer like this is the most respectful as they don't claim any knowledge of the person asking the question, just the capability to take a decision. But the phrase "google is your friend" is catchy sometimes, and punks hate anything that is clique. It's a phrase that unvoluntarily may put some of us at unrest and be defensive. Anyway the story repeats. Newbies will always ask the same questions. There will be people in good spirits taking the time to answer them in a constructive way, and there will be those that point to the sources of information (the meta-web) and (possibly) will teach how to use them effectively. Obviously there will be people that discuss the pros and cons of responding in every way, and here we are. To be continued
 
Old 11-29-2005, 01:16 AM   #25
cs-cam
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Quote:
To this day, I don't find a single distribution that's 100% perfect
You are speaking from a personal viewpoint here and should make that clear. I could turn around and say you're an idiot, use Arch Linux because it is 100% perfect. However I won't because that's an opinion of mine not necessarily shared by others and I wouldn't try to force it upon others.
 
Old 11-29-2005, 01:45 AM   #26
alred
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>> To be continued




ps :: seems that you never lack of sig , you are pretty much a walking encyclopedia ^_^
 
Old 11-29-2005, 03:06 AM   #27
primo
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Quote:
Originally posted by cs-cam
You are speaking from a personal viewpoint here and should make that clear. I could turn around and say you're an idiot, use Arch Linux because it is 100% perfect.
Nononono. I've really feel that no distribution is 100% perfect (not in the way that nothing is really that perfect, but the feeling that to this day no distribution is the best in every aspect over another, as to its superiority is evident by itself, without the need for flame wars and propaganda as it would be redundant). For example, on Gentoo I feel that everything done is very temporary. So I'd like to have portage and compile everything optimized on Debian because of its stability, but Debian to me is over-conservative. Redhat is good and FC is solid and very well supported, but I don't like RPM distributions as I like the source better as it can be shared with other OSes or distros. Slackware is good too, but I don't know why they stick to 2.4 by default. I guess it must be the best 2.4-based around. I haven't tried the new ones: Arch Linux, Ubuntu, TurboLinux, etc. I still can't download them all to use one of them. Anyway I like the feel of Gentoo. It's like growing a baby or a tree.

Maybe we discuss it in another thread.

Last edited by primo; 11-29-2005 at 03:10 AM.
 
Old 11-29-2005, 06:32 AM   #28
27307SB
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Well it seems I have caused a lively discussion

After reading all the posts I have to revise my opinion a little. The "google is your friend" post I find necessary as I find it annoying. I know this may sound strange but let me explain this a little more. The points i'm summing up are all based on my personal opinion and are by far not the rules or anything!

Not Ok
1. The "Google is your friend" post I find to be offending to members who have summed up their problem accordingly by the rules and have stated that they searched all over the internet and LQ for an answer.

2. The "Google is your friend" post I find to be unjust when there has been seriously answered before by other members A.K.A. I need lots of posts fast! (yes this happens)

3. The "Google is your friend" is utterly useless when people say they've searched on internet but did not search LQ for answers. Tell them to search LQ instead! (yes this has also happened)

Ok
1. I find that the "Google is your friend" post is understandable when someone posts a question like "What does IRQ mean?"

2. I find that the "Google is your friend" post is just when you have tried to help the person in question and tell them to search google because the answers can't be found on LQ, and explain this (f.e: Well you could try...and if that doesn't work you could always try google - Google is you friend!)

3. Well I wish I could even the "ok's" and "not ok's" out, but it seems I am one short


This will be my final judgement concerning this thread, after this post I will be moving on. Ofcourse you can continue to post your opinion here, after all I wouldn´t want to put it to a halt.


Greetings,
Stefan ( )

Last edited by 27307SB; 11-29-2005 at 06:33 AM.
 
Old 11-29-2005, 07:46 AM   #29
vharishankar
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That's exactly what I mentioned the first time, 27307SB

Post #3
 
Old 11-29-2005, 09:41 AM   #30
muddywaters
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Quote:
Originally posted by XavierP
LQ is a very easy going forum, but with 386,172 threads (at this time of writing) and 204,823 members, you, will I am sure, understand that answering the same question over and over again can become wearing.
With the success of LQ a google search often leads straight back here. All the more reason not to clutter this forum by repeating questions that have already been asked and answered.

Posters: (slightly OT) It would nice to see more people responding back to threads stating whether the problem has been solved. When googling for solutions, it's frustrating to have to ask yourself "Well did that work or not ?"
 
  


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