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Old 06-10-2016, 10:50 PM   #31
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
All very correct. I'd quibble that the Mark 77 firebomb might not be a great example though, as the point of napalm is to not atomize. I raise you Why Planes Burn, episode 15 of Season 4 of Nova, from 1988.

Some highlights:

I'd watched this back when it was a new episode, and it was very much on my mind when 9/11 happened.
Hello again and TYVM for those links. Good ones. Regarding the Mark-77, actually that was part of my point. If a lousy 100 lbs of high-grade kerosene can be used effectively as a devastating (and expensive) bomb even without atomization (for the stickiness effect), consider the order of magnitude greater amount of raw energy if it were atomized. This is how oils that will not even burn in liquid form are employed in furnaces. With a properly designed nozzle, capable of atomizing even drain oil, these can heat an entire house and do the math how long 60,000 pounds could heat even an 8,000 ft^2 home. Now release that energy all at once in an instant.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 11:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
If a lousy 100 lbs of high-rade kerosene can be used effectively as a devastating (and expensive) bomb even without atomization (for the stickiness effect), consider the order of magnitude greater amount of raw energy if it were atomized... Now release that energy all at once in an instant.
Oh, I'm aware of how powerful that can can be. I mean: one weapon that works on that principle is called the Mother Of All Bombs.

Last edited by dugan; 06-10-2016 at 11:23 PM.
 
Old 06-11-2016, 10:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
Here's a suggestion: Persons who suggest conspiracy theories should be obliged to prove them.
And locked in a dungeon until they do!
 
Old 06-12-2016, 03:38 PM   #34
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The energy, no matter how released, is up there. You might see girders being blown as far away as New Jersey from ... up there.

Notice also that you do not see "Mother of All Bombs" explosions occurring when airplanes crash into the ground, as they sometimes do.

Notice, finally, that this is not the first time that an airliner has crashed into a tall building!

This is no "conspiracy theory," IMHO. You must look at what the evidence you saw plainly tells you, and not automatically accept "official explanations."

(Since, IMHO, most criminal acts involve a conspiracy or some amount or another, I would use the term, "unofficial explanation theory." The aluminum-foil-hat term, "conspiracy theory," to me is pretty darned useless.)

Public officials want to keep the masses at peace. They count on the notion that most of those masses will not, particularly, "think," nor particularly want to. And, they work very hard to promote "groupthink" in favor of their official explanations, ridiculing anyone who speaks contrary to the official answer.

Their key problem in the case of 9/11 was that the truth (IMHO ...) is so terrifying, and so incomprehensible. People very much want to believe that they are living in a bastion that is defended on all sides by the bastion of their navies and armies. People also want to believe that their governments and especially their "national security"-related agencies have (Superman's) X-Ray Vision. The truth (IMHO) of what happened here, blows these fond ideas asunder. And it is for this reason that I understand that "the truth will must never be told."

When you are faced with an enemy of this nature, who has proven capable of attacks of this nature, you do not want him to know "what you and don't know." Loose Lips Sink Ships, in this case. The facts of what happened, and of what investigations were done and what conclusions were reached, and of what has since been done in response to it, is and surely will remain State Secret.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-13-2016 at 07:17 AM.
 
Old 06-12-2016, 05:36 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Public officials want to keep the masses at peace. They count on the notion that most of those masses will not, particularly, 'think' nor particularly want to.
You bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
People very much want to believe that they are living in a bastion
As you said the masses don't particularely think.

We are all sitting on an ejector seat in this world, and not only in one personal layer, but also in an local and global layer.

The US can go up in smoke with the volcano under Yosemite national park any decade or century.

Collisions with noteworthy asteroids will also happen any decade or century. Same goes for epidemics.

Apart from that I consider mankind extraordinarily lucky to not have witnessed nuclear attacks recently one way or the other.

For these and more reasons I find the security perception and fond thinking of the masses ridiculous. Same goes for the circus that is being made of minor incidents. We, especially recent generation we haven't seen nothing yet.

Last edited by alberich; 06-12-2016 at 05:38 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 07:34 AM   #36
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"The nuclear arms race" was the penultimate collision of "conventional military thinking" with "m-o-n-e-y."

This, however, shows that, today, "national security" involves individuals.

And, fair warning: very soon, The Internet is going to become a critical part of that. We are promiscuously sharing information of the most(!) personal sort about individuals ... not only their exact location, but their footfalls and heartbeats ... with no serious thought about who has the information, and what might be done with it.

We have little use for "official cover stories" ... except that we do, sometimes. Knowledge Is Power.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 09:07 AM   #37
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So, Sundialsvcs. You've been oddly non-specific about what the "terrifying truth" is. Who do you think planted the explosives that you say must have been planted?

Last edited by dugan; 06-13-2016 at 09:21 AM.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 02:35 PM   #38
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I have utterly no idea.

I sincerely hope that Homeland Security et al have secretly investigated the matter, and that by now they do know. But I'd just as soon that their findings remain ##CLASSIFIED## as long as possible.

Most disturbing is that there really ought to be a very short list of companies in the demo business, who would be capable of performing at this level. Likewise, there must be a very short list of suppliers of the necessary materials. (It would not surprise me that many details of such exotica are ... and should be ... routinely "very secret.")

And, how any of those suppliers could have in any way "participated with psychopaths," or, worse yet, "been utterly deceived by psychopaths," is just another part of what I hope is in ... and, I also hope, stays in ... a profoundly secret government file.

I cannot offer a full, competing explanation: I am certainly not a demo expert. Frankly, to even contemplate the existence(!) of "this magnitude of Pure Evil," scares the hell out of me.

This is one situation where I hope that someone out there, who's being paid by my tax dollars, is doing his or her job ... that they did discover the truth ... and that I never find out what they learned. In this case, "Loose Lips Sink Ships."

But... there's more:

Aside from(!!) the "diabolical, yet stupendous, technical achievement" of achieving two(!) demolitions that any right mind would say couldn't have been done (as well as a third), these people necessarily achieved "a total penetration of security," and undoubtedly managed to do so for many months. Furthermore, they did this for the third WTC building ... the one that contained a "super-duper terrorism-response center" on its middle floors.

C'mon, we're all in the business of "security awareness" for our clients, right?

"The incredible explosive achievement" is only the beginning of the true lapse ... the "lapse of damned near everything" ... that is the root cause of what actually happened here.

(And this, by the way, is the key to why I am in favor of secrecy. Details of "what they managed to utterly penetrate" are still being relied-upon for society protection, and thus fall into the realm of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell™.")

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-13-2016 at 02:45 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 02:43 PM   #39
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Most disturbing is that there really ought to be a very short list of companies in the demo business, who would be capable of performing at this level.
Wouldn't the Binladins be near the top of that list?
 
Old 06-13-2016, 02:47 PM   #40
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
Wouldn't the Binladins be near the top of that list?
I do not know. (And, I don't even know the name.) I cannot and will not speculate.

I don't have to know what did happen, in order to clearly recognize what didn't.

... and to be fairly "scared out of my wits" by my own speculation.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-13-2016 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 05:33 PM   #41
enorbet
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Hopefully my last observation in this thread but in attempt to make it clear, all that the massive amount of energy contained in 60,000 pounds of Jet Fuel really had to do was damage load-bearing girders and whatever happened to what amount of fuel doesn't speak to the fact that each tower burned fiercely for just under an hour on one, and almost 1.5 hours on the other. All that combined energy needed to do was cause weakening for 1-3 floors for the weight of so many floors above to drop 12-36 feet. The weight of 17 and 11 floors respectively times even 12 feet is hundreds of thousands of foot-pounds, a massive amount of joules of kinetic energy. It then became an avalanche, an unstoppable force. We know this is fact at least in so far as the numbers are there. It is at least possible if not likely. When compared to the odds of such a publicly displayed conspiracy involving so many people over so much time, the conclusion seems a given to me until substantially greater evidence says otherwise.

No bastion is impregnable or invulnerable. Not Jericho, not Troy, not Dresden. Not Hiroshima nor Nagasaki. Not NYC. It's just like computer security. The only absolute security is unplugging it. On a less logical and more speculative note - if I were a high-ranking politician with a lot of power, even if I favored a cover-up for a time you can be damned certain I would spend vast quantities of money and favors to discover what really happened and who was responsible since a known enemy is far less dangerous than an invisible one. The first law of power is "Protect One's Ass" and has the corollary "deal with enemies quickly and ruthlessly".

I haven't noticed anything that smacks of this at all, apart from WMDs in the Middle East.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 07:54 PM   #42
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All physics aside, you still can't escape the fact that, when the upper floors (those within reach of even an improbably extended fire ...) "let go," there was suddenly nothing beneath them to arrest their fall. Tons of metal from upper stories plunged to the ground, without bouncing off of anything(!) on the way down.

The entire pair of buildings fell ... "in eight seconds flat ... into their own footprint." As neatly as any demo-man could have imagined in his wildest dreams. (... If his purposes had been professional and benign, the world should today be beating a pathway to his door, eager to pay whatever fee he cared to name.)

And then, six hours later, a very-specific third building "suddenly and completely collapsed," also on television. A much more conventional demolition job, except for one small thing: this building just-happening to be the one that contained NYC's "anti-terrorism command center."

(Suddenly, both the scope of the conspiracy, and the knowledge possessed, and the functional ability to make a mockery of "strategic plans," multiplied a hundredfold . . .)

Oh, it would be so(!) very(!!) nice(!!!)(!!!) to "blame it all on an airliner's worth of jet fuel." Believe me, it would please me greatly to be able to indulge in such fantasizing, just as the US Government would bid me to do. After all, if I did so, I could content myself in imagining that "I knew what happened," and that "it could never happen again."

Well, as I said, I hope that "my tax dollars at work" have, indeed, done something. (I fully and completely expect that they have.) I want to know that they meticulously investigated everything, found out exactly what really happened, and then sealed their own mouths shut. Because I clearly recognize the value of "the truth" as strategic(!) information, I don't(!) clamor to "know the answer, myself."

If this "caper" took place as I fully believe that it did, then the first-and-foremost thing that the perpetrators exploited was: information, and utter-and-complete lapses of security. (Aye, they took refuge (and assistance) in the knowledge that "no one in America The World" conceived of anyone possessing a human heart as utterly black as theirs.) In one sense, their "explosive exploitation" of those lapses was "merely subsequent." Knowing, now, that America The World faces "a brand of enemy" of this(!) nature, I recognize that information is a potent weapon in his hand, and I am eager to deny him of it.

And, actually, I suspect that the US Government by now does know, and that they have been sharing information with other governments around the planet. "[I ...] don't ask,™ [so,] don't tell™ [me]."

Let us all very-soberly remind ourselves that there is nothing at all, in this attack scenario, that is in any way specific to "the United States of America." There is also nothing, to psychopaths such as these, to prevent: 'Gee, that was fun! Let's do it again somewhere else!" Naturally, the first thing that they would want to know is ... "a de-briefing."

Most unfortunately, this attack scenario re-defines: "World War." It is not just "an American problem." Most unfortunately.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-13-2016 at 08:05 PM.
 
Old 06-14-2016, 06:31 AM   #43
cousinlucky
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If a moral person enters " government service " they will find themselves being a cog of the sinister immorality I call " Satanville "!! This moral person must eventually choose to either give up their " government service job " or give up their principled morality!!
 
Old 06-14-2016, 06:55 AM   #44
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I read this ages ago.



http://911research.wtc7.net/

Last edited by nigelc; 06-14-2016 at 07:01 AM. Reason: missed out something
 
Old 06-14-2016, 01:52 PM   #45
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So if many govt. officials now know "the truth", where is the retribution?
 
  


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