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Old 06-10-2016, 05:41 AM   #16
enorbet
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IMHO it is negligent to assume that the entire load of Jet Fuel (not exactly Home Depot kerosene) went out the other side, but no matter since no expert believes the fuel burned for more than 10 minutes. It is simply considered to be mainly the ignition source. Natural and especially synthetic materials added time and temperature which hit in spots 1800 F, not enough to melt but by far enough to warp and cause well over a 50% reduction in load bearing strength. This was especially true near the elevators since several plummeted to th4e lobby and the doors flew open and flames from them killed people in the lobby. These had a chimney draft effect, exacerbating all burning substances on many floors as a forced air source, literally "fanning the flames".

A major point is that even though nearly 20 people above the crash sites survived and made it out, more didn't because of the understandable confusion and chaos. Confusion and chaos is commonly what destroys conspiracies and the odds for success are indirectly proportional to the number of people, both conspirators and witnessing victims not to mention the many experts under heavy scrutiny afterward. It seems to me nothing short of impossible for any group of this size over this much time to bet on success.

By contrast, even if the Kennedy Assassination was a conspiracy it could have been pulled off with well under 10 people and exposure measured in mere hours and to maybe a dozen more people. For 9/11 to have been a "demo job" would have required hundreds if not thousands of individuals before, during and after, and exposed for large periods of time over weeks and months. With JFK we have one home movie of any consequence and shots fired made people run and hit the dirt while 9/11 had hundreds of cameras focused and thousands of rapt witnesses whose lives depended on staying alert. Not a recipe for success and I don't buy it. Occam's Razor applies here far more than with a solo endeavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Burns
The best laid plans of mice and men aft gang agley

Last edited by enorbet; 06-10-2016 at 05:43 AM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 06:41 AM   #17
sundialsvcs
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I believe that, indeed, "it was an enormous operation." And this is what terrifies me the most ... and makes me understand why the government has said so little about it. Like I said, this sort of thing completely re-defines what "war" is, and what it takes to defend a nation against it. This combination of events could happen anywhere in the world, and it doesn't matter in the slightest how many armies or naval ships you have, or how many billion dollars you spend on one airplane.

You can see that a great many security measures have since been implemented, at public buildings and otherwise, and that most of these measures have been added "very unobtrusively." Obviously, you do not want this kind of enemy to know much about "what you know," or what you are now doing.

There is nothing in a few hundred gallons of kerosene, seventy-odd floors up, that will cause a building to do what these three(!) buildings did. (Those yellow flames blew right out the other side of the building and were consumed in a few seconds.) Furthermore, it is clear that the perpetrators worked on this "project" for a very long time, had complete access to everything, and knew a lot. What is completely unfathomable is how someone, much less "many someones," could be that much of an utter psychopath. To conspire to do it ... to acquire the necessary materials (which implies that the perpetrators could actually get their hands on such exotic stuff without arousing any suspicion ... implying that they were in that business ...) ... but then, most incomprehensible of all, to actually do it.

I hope that any department which calls itself "Homeland Security" did find out what actually happened, and that they keep it all profoundly secret. I suspect that this is exactly what they did. "Knowledge Is Power."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-10-2016 at 06:44 AM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 09:06 AM   #18
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Fluoride..

It all starts with fluoride
 
Old 06-10-2016, 09:36 AM   #19
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There was more to 9/11 than just the twin towers. There were 4 attacks. Not just 2.

Mad respect from me to flight 93 and may those passengers never be forgotten. Ever.

Desk Jokeys never get anything right.

They just get enough right to further their agendas. Nothing more. Nothing Less.

Quote:
The 911/ Reader is part of Global Research’s Online Interactive I-Book Reader, which brings together, in the form of chapters, a collection of Global Research feature articles, including debate and analysis, on a broad theme or subject matter
 
Old 06-10-2016, 11:10 AM   #20
enorbet
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While it is by no means wise to scoff at even 100 lbs of high grade kerosene atomized before it ignites

See - Mark 77 Bomb Successor to Napalm

In fact both planes had close to 10,000 gallons (roughly 60,000 lbs or 30 tons) of Jet Fuel

### take a moment and try to visualize 60,000 pounds of fuel, mostly atomized into a mist, and ignite it and just try to grasp that vast amount of energy in a partly confined space ###

and if you've ever lit a home grill with far less than a single ounce of kerosene-based Grill Lighter you have some clue how far away one can feel the heat, and this is in liquid form taking many minutes to be consumed. Estimates say that some jet fuel was still burning 10 minutes in which implies that only the bulk was atomized and some liquid was scattered around the area. There is photo evidence of fuel in some form entering smashed windows both above and below the impact zone bursting into flames.

Whether liquid and lower temeperature but burning longer or atomized and a shock burst of exceedingly high temperature for a few seconds it is absolutely known that curtains, wood and plastic furniture, carpets, paper and all the flammable trappings of a modern office burned, right up until the collapse. It is a no-brainer that the release of the energy in some 60,000 pounds of jet fuel would ignite anything flammable in a very large radius. That these flames were fanned by natural drafts both external and internal is also a given of such conditions.

Tests on the very same design girders prove that merely 1100 F will weaken them by 50%, more than enough for the weight of 10s of floors above the already impact weakened structure to bring it down. Even if the damage was only enough for many tons to fall just one floor's height the kinetic energy is astounding. This is incontrovertible that what so many saw is exactly what happened or at the very lest COULD have occurred. To casually dismiss this as impossible requiring some other force is simply illogical and grasping at straws or succumbing to irrational fear.

Again, which is more believable

1) That several people operated for weeks or months transporting and setting charges in three buildings that nobody saw (not to mention the number of people involved in the purchase of such quantities of high explosives - one doesn't buy syntex on the street corner anywhere in the world) managed to time it just right for the planes attacks (not to mention having the expertise for how much explosives and the right locations since NOBODY has ever demo'd a building that large - exactly zero expertise) and thousands of people with miles of film and photos as well as thousands of victims and firefighters didn't see through this conspiracy, and much, much more....

- or -

2) A few religious zealots angry at US intrusion in their home country(s) decided to "make a statement" in an all too easy way by hijacking planes (historically quite successful) and instead of just horrifying Americans and others seeing planes, one after another strike 4 targets (that was the plan) complete with people on fire leaping out windows 100 stories up not to mention the clean up details of discovered barely identifiable bodies..... got lucky and three buildings collapsed.

As conspiracies go, 50% success is unusually high but number 2 is a vastly simpler plan involving fewer leak possibilities over a shorter period of time. I should mention that people getting flight training is vastly less suspicious than buying explosives and detonators.

So... pick what seems most likely.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 12:03 PM   #21
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
We do have an unusual concentration of conspiracy theorists and people with fringe beliefs.
That's the internet. When they start in real life, their victims can shut them up by making an excuse and leaving, but here they can ramble on like the Ancient Mariner.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 01:59 PM   #22
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Rumor Control, here are the facts:
DB Cooper was pushed!
 
Old 06-10-2016, 03:59 PM   #23
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
While it is by no means wise to scoff at even 100 lbs of high grade kerosene atomized before it ignites

See - Mark 77 Bomb Successor to Napalm

In fact both planes had close to 10,000 gallons (roughly 60,000 lbs or 30 tons) of Jet Fuel

### take a moment and try to visualize 60,000 pounds of fuel, mostly atomized into a mist, and ignite it and just try to grasp that vast amount of energy in a partly confined space ###

and if you've ever lit a home grill with far less than a single ounce of kerosene-based Grill Lighter you have some clue how far away one can feel the heat, and this is in liquid form taking many minutes to be consumed. Estimates say that some jet fuel was still burning 10 minutes in which implies that only the bulk was atomized and some liquid was scattered around the area. There is photo evidence of fuel in some form entering smashed windows both above and below the impact zone bursting into flames.
All very correct. I'd quibble that the Mark 77 firebomb might not be a great example though, as the point of napalm is to not atomize. I raise you Why Planes Burn, episode 15 of Season 4 of Nova, from 1988.

Some highlights:

I'd watched this back when it was a new episode, and it was very much on my mind when 9/11 happened.

Last edited by dugan; 06-10-2016 at 04:19 PM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 04:17 PM   #24
alberich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
@alberich - While I agree that we are no exception to the fact that every Nation may take itself too seriously
Truth!

Yes, my statement has been callous. It makes a great difference if you see that with your eyes, let alone when you know the victims. Then it is a real trauma. And I think in Germany we have similar experiences before us yet. Sometimes I think we are protected from islamistic terror in the near past, by the 'sympathies' of the islamists to Germany because of the genocide. That is a thought that is sickening to the bone.

Mass media coverage has made 9/11 even more a collective trauma, to me a fake and overstated trauma. With help from media the event became a powerful vector in political agitation.

I think it is absolutely necessary to put the event in perspective like I tried! But I expect that many US citizens already have extensively questioned/refelected the events that followed since 15 years ago.

To me it is very frightening but also excruciatingly disgusting what mass media does in public opinion of the collective. ever since Joseph Goebbels. Individuals can make sound jugement sometimes, I fear in collectivity that ability decreases dramatically

By the way I don't really think that germans of today are still confronted a lot personally by external peoples. It wouldn't make to much sense, as no one did participate.

But I agree with you; it can happen again any time. No, it will happen again, it happens again all the time.

- Abu Ghraib
- Guantanamo
- Executions and terrorism by ISIS
- Hundreds of attacks on refugee buildings in Germany at present
- Atrocities Ukraine / Russia
- Atrocities Palestinians / Israel
- Darfur
- Screbrenica
- Northern Ireland

Humans have this devilish potential, when seeking their own interest in a conflict of interests with others. If convergence through media is strong enough, than a next full scale holocaust will form from the near omnipresent subliminal tendency. And in my opinion collectivization, indoctrinating and many kinds of stupid nationalisms and egoisms and of course industrial weapons are very bad risk factors.

As far as the 3rd Reich is concerned, the thing isn't trough at all. There is so many lessons to be learned yet. Things I fear we are unable to learn. It is my firm conviction that the 5th Reich after the 4th Reich is certain, and so on. It's no question to me.

Last edited by alberich; 06-10-2016 at 05:08 PM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:01 PM   #25
jefro
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You may have seen this type of fireproofing before it is a sprayed on coating that kind of looks like chopped up cardboard. It was supposed to stick on the painted steel. This type of material was approved by NYC so it was a collection of errors. That fireproofing was designed to work with the sprinkler system. It was assumed that a normal office fire would be suppressed by the sprinkler system and the structure would remain intact. NYC banned the stuff after they found it was failing. The steel was condensing water at the point where the glue was supposed to be holding the material.

Now a jet might be 500,000 pounds and lets say it was traveling at only 250 mph. You'd have to have a fireproofing that could stand up to both the hit and the fireball and that cheap sprayed on junk can't stand up to either.

The second part of the fire prevention was the sprinkler system. In NYC you have to store your water on the top floors. NYC won't pressure their water to provide water pressure above street level. The sprinkler system was damaged in the crashes.

The vaporized jet fuel is somewhat close to what the French created. They made what is called a poor mans nuclear bomb with it. This too added to the initial fireball.

Now we know that an attempt to blow it up a few years earlier was ignored. It was in some ways even laughed, some claimed that the buildings were build in a superior manner. To ignore how the enemy thinks may have led to how they were able to murder so many people.

I can only come to one conclusion. The evil scum sucking Muslim extremists contrived this plan, executed it with near precision. I'd have to even call them lucky.

I have only seen one other building where the structure was on the outside. It was an IBM building that has since been torn down.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:12 PM   #26
frankbell
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Wny are we wasting our time in Alex Jones territory?
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:25 PM   #27
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
Wny are we wasting our time in Alex Jones territory?
Because I'm bored?

Last edited by dugan; 06-10-2016 at 10:27 PM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #28
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
Wny are we wasting our time in Alex Jones territory?
While it may often be fruitless with some people and their "sacred cows' most people do have some modicum of reason and if not belittled or beat over the head, are actually sometimes capable of fact-checking and reconsideration. I may let your average "sleeping dog" lie, but not ones that bit my sister. They get trained or impounded. People require a bit more respect.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #29
frankbell
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(Grin) If you are that bored, I have some ideas for some constructive things you could do. And, no, they do not involve my Paypal Donate button (which is still waiting for Donation #1, but I don't care, I just set it up because I could).

Here's a suggestion: Persons who suggest conspiracy theories should be obliged to prove them.

"I'm just asking the question" is not a proof. It's a ploy.

Quote:
most people do have some modicum of reason
[GRUMPY OLD MAN MODE ON]
Optimist.
[GRUMPY OLD MAN MODE OFF]

Last edited by frankbell; 06-10-2016 at 10:49 PM.
 
Old 06-10-2016, 10:43 PM   #30
enorbet
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Thank you, alberich, for your considered response. It helps to understand and even empathize some with your POV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi_Hendrix-Machine_Gun
Evil man makes you kill me
Evil man makes me kill you
Evil man makes you kill me
Even though we're only families apart
Someday, we may actually grow up.
 
  


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