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View Poll Results: How long did you take to get Linux running so you could use it the first time?
3 hours or less 143 68.75%
3-10 hours 27 12.98%
10-20 hours 3 1.44%
more than 20 hours 35 16.83%
Voters: 208. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2003, 07:17 PM   #31
twilli227
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Sorry, but I do not feel your pain. I used windows for a few years and then heard about linux. First install or RH7.3 took about 45 minutes. Up and running no problems.

quote:
Being a Windows user for 30 years is not a plus, but a big problem because you see the things only in one way and believe that is the right, the only and the easiest direction.

I stated in an earlier thread like this one, that I did not think in a windows way when I started using linux. This was an advantage because I was not stuck using just point and click. I am also curious as to how things work.

If windows works for you then use it, plain and simple. If you were just trying to vent your frustrations, then get over it and move on. Post a question(s) and someone will try and help.
 
Old 09-29-2003, 08:05 PM   #32
RolledOat
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteChedda
another app you PLAY with to be honest. After a while you'll figure out enough to make it semi useful, but you still need windows for anything serious.
Hahahahahahaha. Thank you for the laugh, seriously. Having never had Windows, and telecommuting for 6 years with ease all I can do is laugh. Windows is seriously deficient to the tasks that I just take for granted with my machine. This must be why the IT department just instituted a Solaris or Linux ONLY choice for telecommuting or field support.

RO

Windows CAN do all that I need, however, it can't do it efficiently, it can't do it easily, it doesn't multitask well at all and the reliability is terrible. Except for the serious computer users.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:37 AM   #33
Arenba
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I had been reading all the comments on this post and I simply felt I had to add this -
I had been using Windows for quite a good number of years. I had heard about Linux but didn't want to try it because I was never comfortable using a console screen. Then RH6 was introduced a few years back. I still didn't like it (and I didn't need a server during all that time) it performed a bit erratically for a new user.
A month ago, to be precise, I installed RH8. What a pleasant surprise I got !! Finally, along comes an OS I really needed. I was so pleased, I went out and bought a book along with the CDs on RH9 too (though I still use RH8). Now, except for games and Dreamweaver, I hardly use Windows at all. I still don't like using the console, but now I can open up a terminal window and issue commands. I do 95 percent of my work in a terminal, but now I feel comfortable using it. Now I am beginning to understand why the Linux gurus say, things can be accomplished much faster using a terminal and why they swear by it.
Of course, there are a lot of things I have to learn and understand, but its people here at LinuxQuestions that are providing me with all the help and advice necessary to get me past the teething problems every new user has to undergo. So, thank you guys. Without your help, I would have been stuck somewhere.
And if anybody says, there's simply no help available on Linux, they are talking a load of crap. And if they start complaining about patches and bug-fixes, well, Microsoft has a lot of that too. Their patches usually produce a bug and we get another patch a couple of months later, only to produce another bug. And all those patches are released together as a so-called Service Pack "n"(which I always suspect is a beta-tester for a new release the following year - just introduce some bells and whistles and it looks new)
But Linux, on the other hand, has actually helped me understand a lot about how computers work deep down. Now I am beginning to understand what seems to be wrong even if it is a Windows-specific problem. And I can't do anything about the problem either. At least, in Linux, there is some way to get past it.
All in all, I think trying out Linux for both my server and desktop needs, is the best decision I made this year. I am not going to regret it. So there !!
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:48 AM   #34
yapp
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wow. your post gave my a warm and fuzzily feeling inside. nice to hear how you've grown into Linux yourself.. and may I say, have seen a new light yourself?
 
Old 09-30-2003, 11:05 AM   #35
WhiteChedda
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Quote:
Originally posted by RolledOat
Hahahahahahaha. Thank you for the laugh, seriously. Having never had Windows, and telecommuting for 6 years with ease all I can do is laugh. Windows is seriously deficient to the tasks that I just take for granted with my machine. This must be why the IT department just instituted a Solaris or Linux ONLY choice for telecommuting or field support.

RO

Windows CAN do all that I need, however, it can't do it efficiently, it can't do it easily, it doesn't multitask well at all and the reliability is terrible. Except for the serious computer users.
Then this was not aimed at you, after all having never used windows means YOU NEVER LEARNED IT and never had to learn an OS from a WINDOWS user POV. WTF is someone who has been using linux for 6 years doing in the newbie forum thinking the advice given applies to him?

One thing bothers me, if you never had windows how can you know its deficient though. I mean its roughly the equivalant of someone saying unix is an old OS and not useful because they only knew it through terminal to server shell access. I'm not saying it isn't, just questioning exactly how you have knowledge of something you never had? It's like me saying I never drove a Japanese car but they all suck and are cheaply made. Either you work for MS, left a necessary part of your story out, or I call shenanigans. And your zealotry does NOT help linux nor the man with the problem, I fear you define the cliche a rebel without a clue.

Last edited by WhiteChedda; 09-30-2003 at 11:19 AM.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 12:01 PM   #36
WhiteChedda
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Quote:
Originally posted by yapp
Come'on man! <snap some bad words here> If you want serious replies from people, don't start to insult ideas from others about computer science. Stop acting like a troll , or enjoy yourself with comp.os.linux.advocacy newsgroups. I've seen those too much...!

I hope you've read some other posts here... Not everyone here can take Microsoft Windows at serious as you do. But if you feel comfortable with Microsoft Windows, you should be happy. It's the best home-user supported system, and I don't feel sad about that. It's just that not everyone likes the Microsoft-way of doing things.



edit: right now I do all serious things with Linux, things I couldn't possibly imagine doing with a computer. Microsoft Windows XP just sits here at /dev/hda1 for the games.

Why is the English language so hard to comprehend? No where did I say Linux was not a serious OS, I said I do not take it serious, and neither should he. Period. No implications, no secret decoder ring necessary. Why? Because if he does he is goig to be dissapointed, period.
Its like hoping in a race car and thinking your gonna get close to the track record. If you do it this way, you are going to come off on a sour note and NOT enjoy racing. If you approach it with a less serious mind, you will find you are having fun even if you are running dead last.

Thinking of linux more as a new, advanced toy you are messing with rather than the OS you MUST learn to use is a much better approach. When things get aggervating as they inevitably do, go back to windows. Don't get bent out of shape. Post a simple question on a newsgroup like this one and hope certain members are too busy down talking to MS to mess with you and you'll find the intelligent, open minded helpful users give you a boost in toppeling the issue.

Contrary to your assumption I was trolling I was not. I was giving him a SERIOUS outlook on linux from someone that has watched it develope over the last 10 years, but never was willing to suffer the inconvienant often referred to a cryptic design over the convienance computers had been evolving into. I admit Linux is nicer than using LOAD "filename", 8 ,1, [MS BASIC OS for the Commodore VIC 20/64/128]but given the choice of going back to the Commodore BASIC OS I'd turn that down too. And I already know what I am doing there from , oh , like 15 years ago, maybe 20, its not the difficulty, its the convienance that you have to get used to. Though linux is WAY more convienant that it was 10 years ago. Thanks to things like RPM packages with dependency checking, nice X11 desktops, etc..
 
Old 09-30-2003, 12:23 PM   #37
crashmeister
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I don't really know what is going on in the US but in Brasil there are a lot of people that take Linux pretty serious.The IT department of Fortaleza runs Linux on a IBM Z800 mainframe,the Sao Paulo subway is all Linux and the list goes on.The Brazilians have to be a bunch of geniuses in hiding since they seem to be able to manage.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 12:43 PM   #38
MAWipf
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HEY its me again! Wow did I open a can of worms or what? Here is what I have learned from you all.... Do not post a "I hate Linux because I can't work it" message in a Linux forum! Let me give you all an update, yes, I do have Linux back up and running, still not with the updated NVIDIA drivers, I am stuck on installing the source and headers, did the install (double clicking on an RPM works!) but the nvidia install program states that it still can't see them, advice would be good, but back to the original problem, I was trying to learn an OS in a few days. That is not going to happen. I never said I did not like linux, I said that it is not ready for prime time. I still think that. I work in tech support, windows, mac and internet apps. There is no friggin way that anyone in this forum could say that the normal computer user, one that has only been doing it casually for a few years, can do linux. NO WAY! Those of you that think that it is ready have never been asked where the "anykey" is... I was very frustrated until someone said "what makes you think that you can learn linux in 5 days when it took you 13 years to master windows?" well, it didn't take that long, but it did take a few years to master DOS and maybe a year to get real good with Windows...

I am back to try to figure out linux one step at a time, reading posts in here, looking for answers on the web etc. I am taking Linux very seriously because it is somthing that I want to learn, I wouldn't have tried it if I wasn't serious. I was very frustrated because I didn't think I was smart enough for this. Linux has a way of making you feel stupid. Windows has a way of making you feel smart. Which one do I choose.... at this point.... BOTH
 
Old 09-30-2003, 12:47 PM   #39
RolledOat
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteChedda
One thing bothers me, if you never had windows how can you know its deficient though.
And your zealotry does NOT help linux nor the man with the problem, I fear you define the cliche a rebel without a clue.
Read my posts here, and as hlrguy at justlinux.com, then tell me I am a zealot. I happily tell people to use Windows, or at most Dual Boot all the time till they really get it.

On the Windows front, I USED TO BE the sole support for all my family and extended family for Windows (in laws, etc) and for every person any of them knew. Oh, he knows computers. I have spent MANY, MANY hours fixing windows, and re-fixing. The best thing I ever did was get my Mom and Dad off windows. I have converted EVERY other person in my family to Linux. I simply refuse to support Windows anymore. Now don't get me wrong, the fact that I could simply sit down in front of a windows machine, and the OS is SOOOO easy to figure out, I mean, can you move a mouse. It is the OVERHEAD to make things so easy that drive the reliability and capability down. Well. Anyway, it just refused to keep working for them,a nd I got sick of fixing it. Before my wife finally asked me to install Linux, I had re-installed her print drivers 14 times in a year. MS's only response...hardware problem, talk to HP.

I have personally converted 22 people from Windows to Linux, and am freely their tech support and I RARELY get called anymore. It is GREAT.
So I do have some experience with newbies.

Now, when I was going to telecommute, they said it was Windows or nothing. I got my PC, and started trying to get it to work. VNC would not be stable. exceed ran, but vi, a simply editor had ~20 second lag delay on updates over 56K, it was really a joke. I told them, if it is Windows or nothing, I will use nothing. Got a hold of 6.1, installed it, connected transparently, and they didn't know I was using Linux for 2 years. After the found out, they insisted that it was impossible.

The upshot is, I never get offended at anything anyone has to say, I do, however, take huge exception to false statements, be they newbies or expert. I will correct it. See, your statement that 'you need windows for anything serious' gets repeated by others and it keeps the sterotype going. If you had said 'I need windows for anything serious...'. Well. Anyway, no offense taken, even if meant, because, I mean come on, this is an online forum.

RO
 
Old 09-30-2003, 01:01 PM   #40
Medievalist
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Took me a week to get linux installed the first time.

Now, the reason for that was that I did not know the operating frequencies of the video monitor I was using. So, after spending all morning getting Slackware to load on the 386 with 8 MB RAM that I was using at the time, I just "guesstimated" what the sync freqs would be.

The system booted fine into console mode, then I started Xwindows...... and the magic smoke escaped from the monitor!

As everyone knows, magic smoke is essential to the function of a monitor, and once it comes pouring out of the top vent it's really hard to catch it and stuff it back into the tube again where it belongs.

Modern monitors have safety circuits that prevent this sort of thing.

So, even though I got linux up and running in a day, it took me a week to finish the initial configuration since it took a while to scrounge up a new monitor.

Oh, and incidentally - that Slack box became a domain name server that eventually served hundreds of PC client machines. The response got noticeably slow at 400 or so, so after a couple of years I upgraded it to a pentium 166 with 64 MB RAM.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 01:20 PM   #41
WhiteChedda
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Originally posted by RolledOat
Read my posts here, and as hlrguy at justlinux.com, then tell me I am a zealot. I happily tell people to use Windows, or at most Dual Boot all the time till they really get it.

On the Windows front, I USED TO BE the sole support for all my family and extended family for Windows (in laws, etc) and for every person any of them knew.


In which case, you left a vital part of the story out and you also contradicted yourself, you claimed you never used windows now you claim you were tech support? Hard to support something you've NEVER SEEN.

Even so, using windows and being tech support are two different things. As tech support tend to get the bad calls.
Rarely do my parents call me up and go I figured out how to update my virus scanner. Usually its Mcaffee says I need to update, can you do this for us? They run win98se, came with the comp. only had to reinstall once. due to a virus. Bought them a virus scanner, never a problem since. Just the luck of the draw, then again all they do is E-mail and browse the net run a few custom app sfor some club they are in, that kind of stuff.

As to 14 times installing printer drivers, seems a bit far fetched. Then again hows that cliche go, 90% of statistics are false? HP did have some software issues with their multifunction printers, I still run into it ever so often where I work. I usually break the install CD's. Stop the cycle and all.

[B]Oh, he knows computers.[]/B]

Who?

I have spent MANY, MANY hours fixing windows, and re-fixing. The best thing I ever did was get my Mom and Dad off windows.


As I stated, I've installed Linux distros for 10 years now for personal use, its not perfected for a desktop OS.

I have converted EVERY other person in my family to Linux. I simply refuse to support Windows anymore. Now don't get me wrong, the fact that I could simply sit down in front of a windows machine, and the OS is SOOOO easy to figure out, I mean, can you move a mouse.

And the people you converted, you formatted thier HD, left them to fend for themselves with linux and none of them had a single problem or configuration you had to modyify, right? they all figured out how to install, oh wait no they didn;t you did it for them. You , having previous knowledge of the pit fals in linux, navigated the configuration for them. Thats a bit different than buing say Suse or mandrake at best buy running home installing and taking off now isn't it? I bet you even feared telling them about root logins for the damage they might do.

It is the OVERHEAD to make things so easy that drive the reliability and capability down.

?? Overhead? I have no idea where you are going with this. I suppose I could respond about capatalism and job markets driving performance up on PC's, but somehow I think you had a different point in mind than I am percieving. There is no less or more overhead in Linux than windows for a DESLTOP user, they are OS's with GUI's {note you can boot to a command prompt in windows you just won't find many useful apps to run, but desktop users want the pretty colors}

I have personally converted 22 people from Windows to Linux, and am freely their tech support and I RARELY get called anymore. It is GREAT.
So I do have some experience with newbies.


Yes, and they instantly knew what they were doing in linux too, and the dish ran away with the spoon. You seem to be thinking I said Linux is unusable, I said not ready for MAINSTREAM. Having your own personal IT tech train you to use linux is NOT mainstream. Unless you grew up in some alternate universe than I did.

Now, when I was going to telecommute, they said it was Windows or nothing. I got my PC, and started trying to get it to work. VNC would not be stable. exceed ran, but vi, a simply editor had ~20 second lag delay on updates over 56K, it was really a joke. I told them, if it is Windows or nothing, I will use nothing. Got a hold of 6.1, installed it, connected transparently, and they didn't know I was using Linux for 2 years. After the found out, they insisted that it was impossible.

vi? Under windows? Why would, nevermind. I assume you mean windows was a dumb terminal to a UNIX server of some kind, right? Oh wait, Exceed, you mean the ported X11 server? Heh. I am sorry, but thats hilarious..

[snipped, I think I finally understood what you were saying here].

The upshot is, I never get offended at anything anyone has to say, I do, however, take huge exception to false statements, be they newbies or expert. I will correct it. See, your statement that 'you need windows for anything serious' gets repeated by others and it keeps the sterotype going. If you had said 'I need windows for anything serious...'. Well. Anyway, no offense taken, even if meant, because, I mean come on, this is an online forum.

But he does need windows. And he will need windows to remain functional, for he does not know linux, and its trying to learn it from a WINDOWS users POV. Period. He will need windows or a Class at his local CC, one of the two before he jumps head first into Linux.


Last edited by WhiteChedda; 09-30-2003 at 01:37 PM.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:24 PM   #42
RolledOat
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteChedda
Even so, using windows and being tech support are two different things.

Then again hows that cliche go, 90% of statistics are false?
Absolutely, on the first point. I was just so sick of it all. I have qualified posts about this in other forums that I am NOT unbiased, and 97% of my windows experience was fixing, re-installing, rebooting, or helping someone find out how to configure something under 9 layers of submenus over the phone. OK, what does this screen say...read it all off...wait, yes, select that option...arrrghhhh.

On the second point, you forgot to add 19 times out of 20 with a 50% chance of that happening.

Printer problem: 2 printers, one parallel port, A+B box. Windows just kept autodetecting and deleting, occasionally, a missing printer and removing it from pulldown lists. Seems I never set up normal or common configs on a computer.

RO

P.S. I like to think of myself as the OEM for converts. They get it custom installed, I add links to all the apps they want, link to desktop choices, put the help right on the desktop, configure and add burners, set all the default paths for rip, encode, mplayer, xmms, the whole shootin match. This is the #1 reason that Linux is not mainstream. OEM support and configuration.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:45 PM   #43
MAWipf
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You know guys, if you really wanted to help, instead of arguing which is better, Linux or Windows (I don't even care anymore), you could answer some of the questions in my multiple posts. Good God, an operating system is only as "good" as the person that needs it. Right now, I need Windows, in a year, I may think differently. But, if no one will answer any of the questions that I have asked, instead of going out on tangents, then it will take me that much longer to get to the level of being self sufficient. So, do me a favor, I will repeat the question for you all. I am trying to install NVIDIA drivers, but keep getting the message stating that the NVIDIA installer needs the source and headers installed, yet when I try to install the source, kernal-2.4.20-20.9.i686.rpm, it is stating that it is already installed. A little help can go a long way in this discussion, I even see someone else in the newbies section that is asking the same thing...
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:51 PM   #44
Fusioncases
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I don't understand.... Installing xp takes about 30 minutes including a format for me. I go strait into device manager and update all the drivers that xp didnít recognize and I have a completely and fully working windows box within a few minutes of getting to the desktop. After that it takes as long as the programs need to install from the cdrom. The computer reboots and gets back to the desktop in 30 seconds. 1 minute if I have the promise chip activated on my motherboard, takes a darn long time to scan for any raid hds for some reason (but not a os problem anyways). I don't have a problem with virus's because I am cautious about what I dl. I did however catch the msblaster but it took me about 2 minutes to fix that problem.

My modem doesnít work with Linux, my external modem hardly works with Linux. I can't play dvd's I can't play mp3's. When I try to play a actual cd it acts like its playing but no sound is coming out. The sound works for games however. Installing video drivers arenít as easy compared to windows. My digital camera doesnít work with Linux. Almost no 3d games I play work with Linux. My CDRW doesnít work with Linux. Heck I can't even get stuff I need off my xp hd when in Linux (but windows doesnít support transferring to Linux partitions either). I can't chat with a msn chat equivalent on Linux. I can't use my VIVO card with Linux. Now I am sure most if not all of this can be cleared up, once I figure out how. Heck I even know that a good chunk of these problems can be fixed, I'm still working on them though. Linux itself isnít the one to blame that hardly anything works out of the box for me.

For a while at least windows will be my main os. Comparing years of experience with windows compared to a few hours with Linux is ludicrous. I'm sure that if I could magically transfer all my knowledge over to Linux that it would be the only choice for computing. Windows is easier in the sense that if your a complete noob there is much more documentation out there and step by step instructions with new hardware to get it working under windows. If Linux had the same type of documentation for all the kinds of hardware then there would be much more people using it, or at least a lot less noob headaches.

It's like learning to ride a bike all over again. It's going to take a while for you to get a hang of it to the point you donít look like you went through a meat grinder anymore. And it will take even more time to master it. It's easy to be discouraged when you think how easily you can do certain tasks in windows but I'm sure in time you will find possibly even easier ways to do it in Linux.
 
Old 09-30-2003, 04:53 PM   #45
crashmeister
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For the love of whatever.Just get rid of the whole rpm crap,pull a kernel from kernel.org and compile the damn thing.Whats that?RH9?I'll install it and see what your problem is.I need to be punished anyway.
 
  


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