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Old 03-16-2005, 10:16 PM   #76
BajaNick
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Ya know, You guys completely overlooked my cool and comical post to lighten up the tension growing in this thread, LOL.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 04:21 AM   #77
davholla
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Quote:
Originally posted by gulo
Actually most of the down-side that article claims has been refuted by main-stream research here in the US.
That is very interesting, can you please put a link.
I hope it is true although I doubt it, the reasoning seemed sound.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 06:59 AM   #78
Marius2
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
Typical liberal thinking. "Gee, let's subsidize the world. Yay socialism!!" *PUKE*
Quote:
However, liberal weenies don't recognize that the silly thing called "reality" gets in the way and because they live in fantasy land they think that subsidies (which they think grows on trees or something) will magically cause alternatives ...
Quote:
I am not against conservation but I am against the liberal agenda of stopping ALL production
Funny how you're using terms of which you obviously don't know the meaning. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative
 
Old 03-17-2005, 07:31 AM   #79
vharishankar
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This is not a conservative vs. liberal issue as our friend KimVette makes it out to be. Obviously this is a short-sighted, narrow way of approaching this issue.

I give two hoots about whether anybody dubs me as a republican or a democrat (I'm neither because I'm Indian) and seeing this from a world-view, I can just say that the whole issue has been handled in the most unsatisfactory way by both sides.

The real issue should not be politicized, which it unfortunately is. While friend KimVette wants answers to political and short-term questions, this is not my approach.

The sacrifices have to be made at some point of time or the other. The whole world is paying a hell of a price for its dependence on oil and every citizen is also paying a fraction of this cost.

The gist of my argument is real simple for those who cannot read and understand the rest of my arguments:

Dependence on fossil fuels have to end. If not at once, then in stages. The sooner we start the better.

Why not make use of a great opportunity like this to really push the alternative technologies in a big way and being pro-active rather than say: "I'll wait for somebody else to raise the issue". In the long run, in a democracy, politicians follow the people, not the other way round. It's so easy to think: "One day when all the petroleum runs out, there's something else coming. No problem." That won't happen magically unless the technologies start being used in a big way *now*. The process cannot be delayed for too much longer.

Another thing is that by pushing clean, renewable energy sources now. We've been hearing a long, long time about these technologies being available, but so far, they haven't gained mainstream acceptance. Where does the fault lie? Each of us has to look into the mirror for this one.

While part of the blame can be easily shifted to the unsatisfactory nature of technological development in this field, it is obvious that the common man on the street is not too enthusiastic about it either. We all want our cars to keep going and going. We want powerful, trendy power machines that guzzle up fuel. We don't want to think about when the dream ride will end. We always believe that the next petrol pump (or gas station) will be there to refill our tanks. Well, who's going to keep refilling the petrol pumps forever? That's a question that is awkward for people to answer and the issue is simply brushed aside.

Digging for more crude oil is a temporary, unsatisfactory way of handling the larger issue. The people who question this move are not liberal or stupid but merely concerned. Calling concerned citizens "liberal weenies" seem to be a hobby of most conservative sympathizers. Truth is, nobody is conservative totally or liberal totally. Everybody has differing opinions and that's the truth. Respecting a person for their views obviously is not obviously a quality of those who wish to politicize this issue and make it into a "for or against" issue.

But again, when have American politicians (or most politicians around the world anyway) bothered about the larger issues and the long term anyway?
 
Old 03-17-2005, 07:57 AM   #80
davholla
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
I am not against conservation but I am against the liberal agenda of stopping ALL production (it's akin to a miser sitting on millions all his life and die having never spent a dime - what the hell is money good for if you never use it?). The reality is that alternatives are being developed. Practical alternatives are blocked at every turn (e.g., the commie Senator Kennedy--who claims to be an environmentalist blocking the windfarm off of Nantucket Sound because it'd "be unsightly" as he cruises in his yacht, liberal weenies blocking clean, cheap, responsible nuclear power, etc.)

Ditto for the liberals who consistently block clean incinerators which would solve BOTH power production AND trash disposal problems - cleanly, thanks to stack scrubbers -- and claim to be environmentalists. WTF? Hullo? Free fuel, cheap power, and reduction of the use of landfills which pollute watersheds? Knock knock, mcfly, is anyone home?
I would agree with your views about Kennedy and also about incineration.

However is it true that there are many/any people in the US who want to stop all production ?
We do hear quite a lot about the US here but I have never heard that.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 08:07 AM   #81
Marius2
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Quote:
Originally posted by davholla
However is it true that there are many/any people in the US who want to stop all production ?
We do hear quite a lot about the US here but I have never heard that.
You probably haven't heard this because you can't receive Fox "News" in the UK, can you?
 
Old 03-17-2005, 08:24 AM   #82
davholla
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marius2
You probably haven't heard this because you can't receive Fox "News" in the UK, can you?
No we get different types of lies here. Actually we are better off than you because we get both right wing lies and left wing lies. Sadly we do not have any newspaper than is dedicated to the truth as opposed to pushing a particular view point.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 10:42 AM   #83
KimVette
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Communism in a nutshell: You can't do what you want with what you own, because really, the state owns it.

Socialism: liberals want the government to fund everything, not realizing that this is why they have a tax rate higher than 50% and services suck (especially health care. Need an operation to clear your artery? Get on that eight-year waiting list, unless you're a higher-office government official, in which case you get it immediately)

I understand both completely, thankyouverymuch.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 11:16 AM   #84
davholla
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
Communism in a nutshell: You can't do what you want with what you own, because really, the state owns it.

Socialism: liberals want the government to fund everything, not realizing that this is why they have a tax rate higher than 50% and services suck (especially health care. Need an operation to clear your artery? Get on that eight-year waiting list, unless you're a higher-office government official, in which case you get it immediately)

I understand both completely, thankyouverymuch.
In the UK and also I believe the US, you can not use your gun to shoot people even if you want to. Does that mean that Bush and Blair are communists because according to your definition they are ?

Liberals want the goverment to fund everything, what even your holiday ?

The ironic thing about this debate is that I am going to be a candidate at the UK general elections for a party that people call extreme right wing and compared to you I look left wing !
 
Old 03-17-2005, 11:19 AM   #85
vharishankar
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Amidst all this political hoopla, this thread is going nowhere. People keep dodging the real issue and resort to politics.

The problem with you KimVette, is that you know everything, period thankyouverymuch.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 11:29 AM   #86
al_periodical
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Quote:
Communism in a nutshell: You can't do what you want with what you own, because really, the state owns it.
Socialism: liberals want the government to fund everything, not realizing that this is why they have a tax rate higher than 50% and services suck (especially health care. Need an operation to clear your artery? Get on that eight-year waiting list, unless you're a higher-office government official, in which case you get it immediately) I understand both completely, thankyouverymuch.

KimVettism in a nutshell :
1.They can't do what they want with communism.
2.They can't cut queue with socialism.
3.They don't speak like an ideal conservatives who's agenda is to safeguard the people and their society from cut-throat or sudden
progress of all kinds (which is a good agenda for the people)

KimVettism on the net : An urban cynic
 
Old 03-17-2005, 11:36 AM   #87
darkRoom
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Which party are you going to represent davholla ?
 
Old 03-17-2005, 12:17 PM   #88
XavierP
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Quote:
Originally posted by davholla
The ironic thing about this debate is that I am going to be a candidate at the UK general elections for a party that people call extreme right wing and compared to you I look left wing !
BNP, UKIP or Veritas?

Anyway, none of this is party political - let's get this back on track. The discussion is not about Liberals, Conservatives, Republicans or any of that, it's about Oli Drilling in Alaska.

Keep it on track or I'll close the thread.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 12:31 PM   #89
Blinker_Fluid
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Quote:
Originally posted by Harishankar
Amidst all this political hoopla, this thread is going nowhere. People keep dodging the real issue and resort to politics.

The problem with you KimVette, is that you know everything, period thankyouverymuch.
The thread has been interesting. I enjoyed KimVette's input. As for dodging the issue I'm not sure what you are referring to. There is oil in Alaska and I think we should drill for it.

IF you want my response to your statements here they are:
Quote:
Dependence on fossil fuels have to end. If not at once, then in stages. The sooner we start the better.
It won't happen at once. People didn't stop riding in horse and buggy all at once and they won't stop using oil all at once either. The world is not some perfect place where you can snap your fingers and change things overnight. The only reason that dependance on fossil fuels will end is because something better comes along.

The "dependance has to end" is a nice thought. Can I buy fuel at a price I can afford? If the answer is yes the "dependance has to end" is your opinion. I have to go to work. I want to go to <insert_location>. It's worth the price of admittance to listen to the 5.2L of power and feel the wind in my hair.

You are trying to push your values on me. If it helps you sleep better at night I'm a bad man that uses oil, shoots animals, and eats red meat. Probably all things you think need to end and no matter how bad you want them to they won't until I decide not to.
 
Old 03-17-2005, 04:25 PM   #90
davholla
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Harishankar,

I have to say that you have written a lot of sensible things.

KimVette,
Do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is 100% wrong, because that is the impression you are giving.
Regarding what party I am going to represent this is already too of message, so I will start a different thread.
 
  


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