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Old 03-30-2019, 03:23 AM   #31
jazzy_mood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
As an example, law enforcement could use it to find illegal marajuana growers..

Edit: I just read Jefro's post, he beat me to it..

I had not thought about it.

Last edited by jazzy_mood; 03-30-2019 at 03:34 AM.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 03:50 AM   #32
Turbocapitalist
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Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
interesting read.
the terminology is sneaky.
it talks about "smart (electricity) grids" (something i fully agree with at least in theory) and "smart (end consumer) meters".
my initial comment was only about the latter (and wireless).
Yes. Though I am not an engineer, load balancing grids seems to be a good idea. The grids are all increasingly interconnected and the articles I've read suggest they need to stay up because it's no longer possible to bootstrap part of the grid without drawing major amounts of power from elsewhere in the grid. We've pulled the ladder up after ourselves.

However, the wireless, Internet-connected usage meters were and remain major security problems which will increase costs and wastage. It turns out they were conference fodder longer ago that I remembered, there is material from 2009 and earlier. Back then, 2011-2015, pretty much every major or minor security conference had their own presentations about how badly the "smart" meters have been designed and that the subsequent rollout has taken place with the proponents fully aware of the flaws and without any changes. Unpaid electricity usage is just the tip of the iceberg for what the fallout is. The principle of an adaptive, remotely monitored and controled, end-point meter could be implemented reasonably well with some skill, but where are you going to find skilled professionals these days in this wasted landscape where MSCEs and MVPs are posing as IT people or, worse, trainers of IT people? Like with the spread of any bad idea there is a lobbying group pushing it on industry: The European Smart Metering Industry Group (ESMIG) The "smart" meters, as currently designed, are a classic example of a solution in search of a problem. Surveillance and mischief seem to be their main capabilities.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 07:54 PM   #33
freemedia2018
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Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
Like with the spread of any bad idea there is a lobbying group pushing it on industry: The European Smart Metering Industry Group (ESMIG) The "smart" meters, as currently designed, are a classic example of a solution in search of a problem. Surveillance and mischief seem to be their main capabilities.
Mostly quoting because of the gem in the first part of the first line, didn't remove the rest because it's almost as good.

"Like with the spread of any bad idea there is a lobbying group pushing it on industry"
 
Old 03-30-2019, 08:22 PM   #34
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The U.S. electrical grid (known to be the most complex system in the world) connects 5800 power plants and has over 700,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines, yet 70% of the grid's key componets are over 35 years old, and each of them use the older and vulnerable SCADA systems which are readibly attackable. Nearly 70% of critical infrastructure companies across multiple sectors have had atleast one security breach that led to the loss of confidential information, and the disruption of operations during the last 12 months. Furthermore over a dozen American utility companies reported "daily", "constant", or "frequent" attempted cyber-attacks. Some utilities reported being attacked 10,000 times each month (theres probaly forums where hackers from all over the world "practice" and share info on a common target). This likley means that our potential enemies have their exploits readibly avaliable (via logic bombs), should the need arise for them to strike America's achilles heel..

84% of utility companies only have non-specialists to make cyber security decisions.. To counter act this the federal task force is setting up mutual-assistance, allowing one team of cybersaviors to help multiple companies...

Why dont they just upgrade the grid? Cause if an EMP or major cyber attack happens then there goes the electric grid, gas pipelines, 911 dispatch systems, air traffic control, stock market, drinking water, streetlights, hospitals, sanitation systems, credit card transcations, POS payment terminals, ATMs, and SCADA will all come to a screeching halt without computers to run their networks.

When a Black Sky event happpens, engineers have only three days before food spoils, medicine and water run out, batteries die, and the public looses its marbles. Speedy fixes are vital but its difficult when the grid plugs thousands of powerplants and even more customers into the same infrastructure.

Companies like PJM Interconnection, which serves 13 eastern states, administer "orgainized markets" that help utility companies obtain power from each other, making it easier to restore the grid.

Also power-generators/transforms will get 300% more efficient and foolhardy cause a company called 3DFS is making software that can digitally refine the three-phase current electrical waves that go through transmision lines. This will result in smaller transformers which can more easily be replaced, and replaced before they blow since digital fingerprints of the waves get matched, which could indicate signs of failure beforehand (similarly servers will also be able to take advantage of failure indictions/300% power efficiency via the 3DFS VectorQ2 power controller, which sits between the grid and your building, refining power so none is wasted; BITCOIN FARMS WILL HAVE THIS)..

Last edited by young_jedi; 03-30-2019 at 08:52 PM.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 01:08 AM   #35
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
Why dont they just upgrade the grid? Cause if an EMP or major cyber attack happens then there goes the electric grid, gas pipelines, 911 dispatch systems, air traffic control, stock market, drinking water, streetlights, hospitals, sanitation systems, credit card transcations, POS payment terminals, ATMs, and SCADA will all come to a screeching halt without computers to run their networks.

When a Black Sky event happpens, engineers have only three days before food spoils, medicine and water run out, batteries die, and the public looses its marbles. Speedy fixes are vital but its difficult when the grid plugs thousands of powerplants and even more customers into the same infrastructure.
The public will lose their marbles, too. The grids, from what I read, need another working, adjacent grid to be able to start back up and resume operation. If they all go down at the same time, they're not coming back up. Others, in some countries, have been deemed an accident waiting to happen and will not be coming back up if there is a major outage. Continuing the digression, as sparsely stocked as the grocery stores, are they'll be empty in a matter of hours then some tens of hours later, the real riots will start. The smart meters have little to do with grids though.

Back to the smart meters, here is a list of links to summaries of the shortcomings: https://stopsmartmeters.org/frequently-asked-questions/

The health stuff is not yet proven but we certainly do not need more noise in the 2.4GHz band and the damage to home area networks is measurable.

DEF CON and CCC have had overviews too, but it will be too much of hunt to find them since the presentations are not properly cataloged and full-text searches only take you so far.

Hazel, apparently smart meters are not compulsory in the UK yet if that link is accurate. Here is a more official document: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/data.xht which leads to other related legislation.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 03:03 AM   #36
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
The grids are all increasingly interconnected and the articles I've read suggest they need to stay up because it's no longer possible to bootstrap part of the grid without drawing major amounts of power from elsewhere in the grid.
"no longer"? electricity grids have always worked like that.

Quote:
We've pulled the ladder up after ourselves.
why always the dystopian analogies...

Quote:
However, the wireless, Internet-connected usage meters were and remain major security problems which will increase costs and wastage. It turns out they were conference fodder longer ago that I remembered, there is material from 2009 and earlier. Back then, 2011-2015, pretty much every major or minor security conference had their own presentations about how badly the "smart" meters have been designed and that the subsequent rollout has taken place with the proponents fully aware of the flaws and without any changes. Unpaid electricity usage is just the tip of the iceberg for what the fallout is. The principle of an adaptive, remotely monitored and controled, end-point meter could be implemented reasonably well with some skill, but where are you going to find skilled professionals these days in this wasted landscape where MSCEs and MVPs are posing as IT people or, worse, trainers of IT people? Like with the spread of any bad idea there is a lobbying group pushing it on industry: The European Smart Metering Industry Group (ESMIG) The "smart" meters, as currently designed, are a classic example of a solution in search of a problem. Surveillance and mischief seem to be their main capabilities.
now you are mixing US stuff with European stuff.
I'm not saying this isn't a global problem, but things definitely aren't the same everywhere on planet.

These are delicate matters, especially if you bring dystopia into it all the time. Not saying you're wrong, but I for one prefer to carefully weigh my words before I hit the keyboard.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 03:46 AM   #37
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I read a book a year or so ago (can't remember its name) which started with an unidentified power exploding a minor nuclear bomb high up in the stratosphere above America. This caused an electromagnetic pulse which knocked out the grid, the backup systems and all electronics. The book simply followed the likely consequences. After a year, the United States no longer existed and more than half of its former citizens were dead.

@Turbocapitalist. I know smart meters are not (yet!) compulsory over here. That's why I'm not having one. But I wonder how long we'll be given the choice.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 04:21 AM   #38
freemedia2018
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https://www.askaprepper.com/7-things...urvive-an-emp/

Singapore puts its electrical cables underground. They don't have electrical poles.

If we really want to make the USA survive an EMP, we should do the same. Then we can put the electrical grid in the equivalent of a Faraday cage. Extra points if you can demonstrate why this is impossible, because the whole system would be taken out by any electrical devices on the grid above the ground. Okay, not sure what to say about that. I'm not a physicist. Maybe there's a way to do it.

I understand that there's nothing trivial or inexpensive about putting electrical cables underground.

When it comes to war, we spare no expenses. We are talking about upgrading the electrical system, underground seems like the logical place to put it. There are drawbacks, but since we are talking about protecting the grid from attacks... P.S. for whatever reason, an EMP only cuts 5% off the efficiency of solar panels. So I guess we should make a lot more of those.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 05:04 PM   #39
young_jedi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
The grids, from what I read, need another working, adjacent grid to be able to start back up and resume operation. If they all go down at the same time, they're not coming back up.
The grid is already split into three distinct regions: East side, West Side, and Texas (I guess Texas really can be their own country).. But an EMP attack would knock them all out at the same time.. Now in the case of a cyber attack a hacker's ultimate goal is to own a master control center. Within these critical hubs, system operators rely on video-covered walls and button-filled consoles to keep the grid going. If a malignant program breaks through, it could corrupt the data that controllers rely on. So some power companies are creating duplicates to form "twin nerve centers" that can trade off grid-control duties, and also access known-good backups from eachother.. There are 125 estimated master control centers in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I read a book a year or so ago (can't remember its name) which started with an unidentified power exploding a minor nuclear bomb high up in the stratosphere above America. This caused an electromagnetic pulse which knocked out the grid, the backup systems and all electronics. The book simply followed the likely consequences. After a year, the United States no longer existed and more than half of its former citizens were dead.
That's a pretty good summary of what would happen I heard many experts say the same thing..

Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
Singapore puts its electrical cables underground. They don't have electrical poles.

If we really want to make the USA survive an EMP, we should do the same.
The problem is an EMP could penetrate deep underground, so simply putting stuff underground wont help... I'd say allocate more resources into hardening the grid via the more tactical efforts their already doing. But then also use Elon Musk's hyperloop system to build a "series of tubes" underground for the rapid transport of food, water, and supplies all across the continental U.S., should the grid get knocked offline.. Obviously that would in itself need to be "EMP-proof", buts it's probably alot cheaper than putting a faraday cage around the 'whole' grid...

Last edited by young_jedi; 04-01-2019 at 07:54 PM.
 
Old 04-01-2019, 07:09 AM   #40
jazzy_mood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
If we really want to make the USA survive an EMP, we should do the same. Then we can put the electrical grid in the equivalent of a Faraday cage. Extra points if you can demonstrate why this is impossible, because the whole system would be taken out by any electrical devices on the grid above the ground. Okay, not sure what to say about that. I'm not a physicist. Maybe there's a way to do it.

I understand that there's nothing trivial or inexpensive about putting electrical cables underground.

When it comes to war, we spare no expenses. We are talking about upgrading the electrical system, underground seems like the logical place to put it. There are drawbacks, but since we are talking about protecting the grid from attacks... P.S. for whatever reason, an EMP only cuts 5% off the efficiency of solar panels. So I guess we should make a lot more of those.
I feel you. I'm also in favor of a Faraday cage, but I have no clue about physics, electromagnetic pulses and how they work in times of war. Anyway, I'm a pacifist and I just strive for the survival of the human species.

Last edited by jazzy_mood; 04-01-2019 at 07:14 AM.
 
  


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