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Old 10-05-2020, 06:01 PM   #61
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
+1 on cynwulf's comment. Ondoho disagrees with you, but he could be right. A beginning with words like
Code:
Ondoho it is obvious that you …
doesn't sound like you're debating the point.
It isn't a matter of just disagreement any more than someone can disagree with "what is the distance from NY to LA?". Here is the progression which you left out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by ondoho
Of course he's not responsible for the pandemic itself.
But look at it this way:[*]a system that gives the president too much power (since Sep 11 2001, maybe already before that)
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet response
The system does not give the US President too much power. If that were actually true then Obama would have pushed through numerous bills important to his image, ego, and place in History... and possibly his own sense of value, that were stopped by a stonewalling Congress and a difficult Supreme Court. Trump has lost several such battles as well, though he has been somewhat more successful than Obama in that regard.
Is that response inaccurate? I contend that ALL US presidents, even after 9/11, don't get their wishes on a regular basis and possibly more true now than ever with the Bi-Polar Politics of today, each Party in turn blocking the other. If that is true as I think it is, then every point after that ondoho made, falls apart because they each depend on too much presidential power.

It is incumbent on ondoho to provide evidence for there to be any discussion. Otherwise it is just a vacuous accusation.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 06:05 PM   #62
jefro
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So when SARS, EBOLA were killing people where was your outrage? SARS and EBOLA didn't affect the world for some reason like COVID did. Exactly when were so sure that the US needed to do something? Exactly what would you do? Tell people to wash hands? Did you set in motion Billions of dollars to seed companies work on vaccine and treatment plans?

About 50 people where I work are almost all older folks with pre-existing conditions. No one died. No one spent time in any hospital. Only one ex-Marine who looks like Tarzan claims to have any ill effects. I do believe it is killing people with pre-existing conditions.

I don't like Covid. Still think China has something to do with it. Still think that the solution is to find out why the young are so resistant instead of finding ways to invent drugs. I'd be tempted to take childhood immunizations just on a hunch.

Anyway, covid is a blip on the many issues that I feel important.

Anyone that is overweight, smokes, doesn't exercise and doesn't eat right has no right to complain about covid. A million people each year die from aids still. That is easily preventable.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 06:09 PM   #63
enorbet
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Hello again eight.bit.al. I think you kinda made my point with
Quote:
Originally Posted by eight.bit.al
Not true at all. Singapore, South Korea, and others had gone through pandemics before and were quick to act, and the populations were accepting of the social responsibilities required
The US has never to my knowledge been through a devastating pandemic and (one of the things I dislike about) Trump is not exactly a "Science Guy". Being more of a Business Guy he leaned toward preventing panic which is simply bad judgment and ignorance if the (murky) facts. That makes him a moron maybe but not The AntiChrist.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 06:23 PM   #64
michaelk
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Quote:
The US has never to my knowledge been through a devastating pandemic
Not in our lifetime but what about the Spanish Flu of 1918? The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States. Vaccines did not exist but the same basic steps i.e. masks, social distancing was still the main message. Just like today people in the US were complaining about wearing them for the exact same reasons.

Quote:
Being more of a Business Guy he leaned toward preventing panic which is simply bad judgment and ignorance if the (murky) facts. That makes him a moron maybe but not The AntiChrist.
Totally agree... The way his flock was acting outside Walter Reed hospital you would think he was a saint.

Last edited by michaelk; 10-05-2020 at 06:37 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 06:37 PM   #65
eight.bit.al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
So when SARS, EBOLA were killing people where was your outrage? SARS and EBOLA didn't affect the world for some reason like COVID did. Exactly when were so sure that the US needed to do something? Exactly what would you do? Tell people to wash hands?
When your position is weak, attack the opponent. Nice.
Quote:
Did you set in motion Billions of dollars to seed companies work on vaccine and treatment plans?
Not helpful to ask absurd questions. As if I was in charge of billions. Of course the answer is the Trump administration did, just two months late.
Quote:
About 50 people where I work are almost all older folks with pre-existing conditions. No one died. No one spent time in any hospital. Only one ex-Marine who looks like Tarzan claims to have any ill effects.
Useless, anecdotal information. Should we make plans based on this minuscule data point?
Quote:
I don't like Covid. Still think China has something to do with it. Still think that the solution is to find out why the young are so resistant instead of finding ways to invent drugs. I'd be tempted to take childhood immunizations just on a hunch.
I see this as borderline wacky thinking. I see who I'm debating with.

Quote:
Anyway, covid is a blip on the many issues that I feel important.

Anyone that is overweight, smokes, doesn't exercise and doesn't eat right has no right to complain about covid. A million people each year die from aids still. That is easily preventable.
What-about-ism. I wish you all the best.

8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 10-05-2020 at 06:53 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 07:38 PM   #66
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I contend that ALL US presidents, even after 9/11, don't get their wishes on a regular basis
Two words: Executive Order.

They don't exist in any other democracy in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
The US has never to my knowledge been through a devastating pandemic
Except for the spanish flu from 100 years ago: In the U.S., about 28% of the population of 105 million became infected, and 500,000 to 850,000 died
 
Old 10-05-2020, 07:57 PM   #67
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
That makes him a moron maybe but not The AntiChrist.
I'd say this makes him look much worse than the AntiChrist.

"This is insanity," tweeted Dr James Phillips, an attending physician at Walter Reed National Military Medical Centre, where Trump has been hospitalised since Friday evening
...
"Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary presidential 'drive-by' just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die," the doctor wrote. "For political theatre. Commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theatre."


Please explain to me how those are not the actions of someone with a "certain type" of personality disorder?

Last edited by rkelsen; 10-05-2020 at 08:15 PM.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 03:09 AM   #68
enorbet
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Hello rkelsen -

Firstly I don't see Executive Order as a serious problem. It is not without recourse, checks and balances, and has been used for emergency situations where it's fast action was needed. Here's an assessment even just from Wikipedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Executive Order
Like both legislative statutes and regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review and may be overturned if the orders lack support by statute or the Constitution. Some policy initiatives require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging wars, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes. As the head of state and head of government of the United States, as well as commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces, only the president of the United States can issue an executive order.
So what if no other democracies have it? That doesn't automatically make them virtuous or the US an Autocracy. The facts are it has been a net good. There is a complete list of ALL Executive Orders by ALL presidents on Federal websites that anyone can check.

Re: AntiChrist - Once again being uninformed, driven by agenda, conclusion by wishful thinking and ignoring facts are attributes of human people.

I'm not religious so I could have this wrong (I may be ill informed and/or biased) but it is my understanding those are not attributes of The AntiChrist. It is my understanding The AntiChrist is The Trickster desiring and actively working for the destruction and downfall of all Humanity. I don't see that applying to The Donald.

Look, I know almost everyone these days expects total binary polarity but I will not comply. I can think for myself and I don't find myself aligned with either Democrats or Republicans. Frankly I am upset and a bit frightened Trump was ever elected but I'm aware that Clinton and Obama both allowed and supported actions and legislation I consider unconstitutional and unconscionable. You can't pigeonhole me as Liberal or Conservative by modern definitions.

A very loose working definition might be I am socially Liberal but fiscally Conservative, so please bear that in mind when you assume I'm supporting Trump. I'm not. Frankly I am also scared of Biden's health and particularly of Kamala Harris "politics as usual" bent to the distinct detriment of Justice for Citizens but I will likely vote Democrat especially now that Trump is either actually ill or merely avoiding debate. It's a deplorable choice - Lesser of Evils.

Last edited by enorbet; 10-06-2020 at 03:11 AM.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 04:34 AM   #69
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Re: AntiChrist - Once again being uninformed, driven by agenda, conclusion by wishful thinking and ignoring facts are attributes of human people.
I'll say. The guy catches a deadly virus and then endangers the lives of drivers and security guards for his own self-aggrandizement. That is the behavior of a homicidal psychopath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
I am socially Liberal but fiscally Conservative
I've said this to you before enorbet, you're a funny guy.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 05:11 AM   #70
business_kid
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Leaving US politics aside, Europe did fairly well in March - extreme lockdowns in most cases. The place Europe came unstuck was unlocking. The governments rushed it, and (particularly young) people abused it.

Countries have big tourist industries, big hospitality sectors, and big airlines. To get economies open, we have to get these back to work. But that means more Covid cases. There's tens on billion €€ owed by each country. We simply can't afford to do that again.

Each place has it's own unique problems. Italy was over borrowed before Covid; they were turning away patients over 80 with Covid at hospitals for a while. Ireland was running budget surpluses, so debt wise we're OK. But Ireland skimped on the Health Service, so we have only 5 ICU beds per 100,000 vs. 63/100,000 in Germany. We're now in hock up to our eyeballs, so when the medics recommended another full lockdown recently, the Government simply couldn't afford it. We've still got to reckon with 2 big airlines going broke (Aer Lingus, & Ryanair).

And on the AntiChrist - for once I agree with enorbet. The AntiChrist is not Trump. It's not a generic term for evil people. It was the Apostle John only who used the term in the singular and plural. It literally means what it says - Anti or Against Christ and his followers. Antichrists had left Christianity (1 John 2:18,19). John used the plural as many were coming in the 1st century with apostasies, attempts to deny the benefits of Christ's ransom to humans. There is a composite AntiChrist, composed of individuals or groups attacking true religion. So John's AntiChrist = Paul's 'Man of Lawlessness.' It is no one player on the world stage.

Last edited by business_kid; 10-06-2020 at 05:13 AM.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 06:20 AM   #71
hazel
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Well, he seems to have got away with it! As did Bolsonaro. The devil looks after his own, seemingly.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 07:03 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And on the AntiChrist - for once I agree with enorbet. The AntiChrist is not Trump.
I don't see anyone actually saying that Donald Trump is the AntiChrist. The closest thing is this, in post #67:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
I'd say this makes him look much worse than the AntiChrist.

Which comes after posts #22 #57 #63:
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I'm no Trump fan but he isn't the "AntiChrist" many portray him to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Trump isn't blameless but he also isn't Damian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
That makes him a moron maybe but not The AntiChrist.
Unless I missed something, nobody compared Donald to [insert placeholder for evil] before those assertions?



Last edited by boughtonp; 10-06-2020 at 07:04 AM.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 07:18 AM   #73
mjolnir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
I'd say this makes him look much worse than the AntiChrist.

"This is insanity," tweeted Dr James Phillips, an attending physician at Walter Reed National Military Medical Centre, where Trump has been hospitalised since Friday evening
...
"Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary presidential 'drive-by' just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die," the doctor wrote. "For political theatre. Commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theatre."


Please explain to me how those are not the actions of someone with a "certain type" of personality disorder?
My understanding is that the drivers volunteered for the duty. Given their fitness level and age they are probably more at risk in their daily drive to work than they are of severe Covid reactions.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 08:07 AM   #74
eight.bit.al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And on the AntiChrist - for once I agree with enorbet. The AntiChrist is not Trump. It's not a generic term for evil people. It was the Apostle John only who used the term in the singular and plural.
See definition three:

Definitions from Oxford Languages

An·ti·christ
/ˈan(t)ēˌkrīst,ˈanˌtīˌkrīst/

noun: Antichrist
plural noun: Antichrists

(in some Christian teachings) a personal opponent of Christ expected to appear before the end of the world.
"the battle between Christ and the Antichrist"

a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church.
"St. Paul really did have to fear for his life at the hands of an Antichrist named Nero"

a person or thing regarded as supremely evil or as a fundamental enemy or opponent.
"I see the media as the Antichrist"

I wouldn't give him the credit of calling him the anti-christ, just a metastic cancer to be cut out of American body politics.


8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 10-06-2020 at 08:09 AM.
 
Old 10-06-2020, 10:56 AM   #75
business_kid
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Yeah, I'd expect dictionaries to be different. I identified the AntiChrist from Scripture, they did it from English usage. But I won't start a religious discussion on top of a political one.

Has everyone in the Excited States forgotten about Global Warming in this Great Presidential Spectator Sport, which unlike the Olympics (also scheduled for this year) is not being postponed by Covid-19?
 
  


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