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Old 10-04-2020, 04:41 PM   #46
enorbet
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Hello eight.bit.al (or is it "I"?) I think you make considerable sense but the statistics you posted lack context, IMHO. Obviously South Korea did extremely well but the Top 20 death rates per million are all countries with very high population densities and the majority on the other end are far more rural and separated. There are a few exceptions in addition to S Korea like the Phillipines and France, and it is worthwhile to examine why that is so. Sweden and Italy are fairly enlightened countries but they are within single digit percentage of the US so I don't see deaths per million due to a new cause to be a valid basis for judgment. Some had safer environments, some were authoritarian AF (like China herding people in buildings and barring the doors) and some just benefited from "right opinion" luck of the draw.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 01:45 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I don't like Trump either, but he's not the Dark Lord and he certainly is not single-handedly responsible for the way covid has played out in the US.
Of course he's not responsible for the pandemic itself.
But look at it this way:
  1. a system that gives the president too much power (since Sep 11 2001, maybe already before that)
  2. a president that is willing to (ab)use this power to its full extent...
  3. ...firing people under him that do not play the way he likes it...
  4. ...resulting in a government that is "All Trump"!
So it's the political system of the US of NA AND Trump AND the pandemic itself that are responsible.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 03:52 AM   #48
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Of course he's not responsible for the pandemic itself.
But look at it this way:
[*]a system that gives the president too much power (since Sep 11 2001, maybe already before that)
The system does not give the US President too much power. If that were actually true then Obama would have pushed through numerous bills important to his image, ego, and place in History... and possibly his own sense of value, that were stopped by a stonewalling Congress and a difficult Supreme Court. Trump has lost several such battles as well, though he has been somewhat more successful than Obama in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
[*]a president that is willing to (ab)use this power to its full extent...[*]...firing people under him that do not play the way he likes it...[*]...resulting in a government that is "All Trump"!
These remaining 3 "points" depend entirely on the first being true. Though firing some people is somewhat true and rightful, the key to it's validity is who he doesn't have the right to fire.... again, limited power which you ignore and deny, facts to the contrary notwithstanding, eh?.

Ondoho it is obvious that if you don't hate the US, then at the very least you have some grudge against it, even if that is simply based on your disgust (and jealousy?) for Capitalism and the fact that the US is still the most powerful and productive nation in the world. Is it a burr under your saddle that you are forced to use US technology to even be on LQN? Or are you just another Leftist (Russian?) puppet troublemaker sowing FUD?

Last edited by enorbet; 10-05-2020 at 03:54 AM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 09:19 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Do you actually believe there was some shining, glorious, better time in the past?
Of course not, humans have been making each other's lives hell since the dawn of recorded history if not longer. Now we just have the technology to magnify that negative effect.

You may call me negative nancy, but why do you think its always the worst of us that hold positions of power? Why do you think its standard practice for news agencies spin facts and feed into the societal strife regardless of their political focus? Have we really changed that much since the time of the Salem witch trails?
 
Old 10-05-2020, 11:35 AM   #50
eight.bit.al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbea View Post
Have we really changed that much since the time of the Salem witch trails?
That we no longer have witch trails answers that question. And we no longer crucify people on crosses like the Romans shows the ark of progress. That's why I'm a progressive. In the long haul, we will win.

8bit
 
Old 10-05-2020, 11:44 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Ondoho it is obvious that if you don't hate the US, then at the very least you have some grudge against it, even if that is simply based on your disgust (and jealousy?) for Capitalism and the fact that the US is still the most powerful and productive nation in the world. Is it a burr under your saddle that you are forced to use US technology to even be on LQN? Or are you just another Leftist (Russian?) puppet troublemaker sowing FUD?
I don't see how criticism of the political system of a country, should be so readily equated to a grudge, disgust or jealousy... equally it could be argued that you are coming across as someone from the US who likes to characterise opponents as simple "haters", jealous of the success of the "greatest country in the world", etc. We can all draw conclusions and/or pigeon hole people.

For what it's worth - I actually agree that Trump has become the bogeyman - he has been relentlessly assailed in the global media in the same way that Jeremy Corbyn was character assassinated and ridiculed over here. There are a lot of loathsome, self interested politicians, who happen to be sitting on a fortune and Trump certainly ranks among them - but Trump unlike numerous other duplicitous weasels is just not good at the PR side of things and hiding some of his unpleasant character traits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Leftist (Russian?) puppet troublemaker sowing FUD?
That comment also seems well below the belt.

Last edited by cynwulf; 10-05-2020 at 11:47 AM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 11:50 AM   #52
eight.bit.al
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Trump putting a number of people in danger of Covid with his drive-by in front of the hospital shows the character of the man. Infections are still spreading in the White House because Trump made masks into a culture war where which side one is on is more important than the data, the facts. The Covid denier problem is self correcting.

8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 10-06-2020 at 07:16 AM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 01:02 PM   #53
business_kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Or are you just another Leftist (Russian?) puppet troublemaker sowing FUD?
+1 on cynwulf's comment. Ondoho disagrees with you, but he could be right. A beginning with words like
Code:
Ondoho it is obvious that you …
doesn't sound like you're debating the point.

Last edited by business_kid; 10-05-2020 at 01:03 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 01:32 PM   #54
eight.bit.al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Hello eight.bit.al (or is it "I"?) I think you make considerable sense but the statistics you posted lack context, IMHO.
Al is short for Albert, but it's only Albert when I'm in trouble. The stats came from the chart listed a post or two before mine.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavir...ickerSort=desc

Quote:
Sweden and Italy are fairly enlightened countries but they are within single digit percentage of the US so I don't see deaths per million due to a new cause to be a valid basis for judgment.
Italy was slow to administer social distancing and paid the price, like the US; and wasn't Sweden the country that went for herd immunity?

8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 10-05-2020 at 01:39 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 01:53 PM   #55
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
I don't see how criticism of the political system of a country, should be so readily equated to a grudge, disgust or jealousy... equally it could be argued that you are coming across as someone from the US who likes to characterise opponents as simple "haters", jealous of the success of the "greatest country in the world", etc. We can all draw conclusions and/or pigeon hole people.

For what it's worth - I actually agree that Trump has become the bogeyman - he has been relentlessly assailed in the global media in the same way that Jeremy Corbyn was character assassinated and ridiculed over here. There are a lot of loathsome, self interested politicians, who happen to be sitting on a fortune and Trump certainly ranks among them - but Trump unlike numerous other duplicitous weasels is just not good at the PR side of things and hiding some of his unpleasant character traits.


That comment also seems well below the belt.
I welcome objective criticism and the US, like all institutions needs it. However perhaps you haven't noticed ondoho's continual snide remarks, characterizations, and even outright untruths just to be able to slam the US and mainly, if not only, the US. He makes up, spins facts in double speak, and generally spreads actual FUD with little or no backing evidence. That smacks of personal negative opinion, which is fine... once or twice. After enough time and repetitions I consider that an agenda, and since he never comments negatively about any other nation, let alone starts a new complete thread blasting anyone else, I think that must be met head on and WITH evidence whether anyone thinks it's below the belt or not - Quid Pro Quo. I give as I get.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 02:01 PM   #56
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbea View Post
Of course not, humans have been making each other's lives hell since the dawn of recorded history if not longer. Now we just have the technology to magnify that negative effect.

You may call me negative nancy, but why do you think its always the worst of us that hold positions of power? Why do you think its standard practice for news agencies spin facts and feed into the societal strife regardless of their political focus? Have we really changed that much since the time of the Salem witch trails?
Hello orbea. You make some good points, but they seem to me "in a vacuum". Indeed our History is punctuated with conflict, much of it brutal and nasty, but that doesn't mean good hasn't been worked for and realized, probably mostly on a local level but over time it has spread to almost everyone, certainly the bulk of humanity is better off today than at any time in History. There is progress even if it is agonizingly slow.

And, No, we haven't changed all that much since the Salem Witch Trials but we did change that and improve a wee bit. I too wish it was faster but that seems to be the way of the world. Largely it's dangerous but it isn't altogether hostile. It is possible to recognize that things do improve without toggling in binary rose-colored glasses to the opposite view.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 02:09 PM   #57
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eight.bit.al View Post
Al is short for Albert, but it's only Albert when I'm in trouble. The stats came from the chart listed a post or two before mine.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavir...ickerSort=desc
Cool! and thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eight.bit.al View Post
Italy was slow to administer social distancing and paid the price, like the US; and wasn't Sweden the country that went for herd immunity?

8bit
True and precisely my point. Nobody knew the best response and just did the best they could under difficult circumstances. Trump didn't do horribly and certainly didn't imagine there would be 200,000 deaths by now. His narcissism should tell us that. I'm quite sure he's upset at the very least he's being tagged as "failing" in anyway, especially when there is evidence it could be seen that way. He did contribute but relatively unknowingly. Population density and political polarization (of which he is also a part) played important parts. Trump isn't blameless but he also isn't Damian.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 03:40 PM   #58
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Trump isn't blameless but he also isn't Damian.
He & his family did not wear masks at the nomination of the new Supreme Court Justice. At that point in time the effects of the virus were well known, and so was the effectiveness of masks. He talked about not wearing a mask at last week's debate. From where I sit, those actions are significantly more dangerous than you seem to believe.

In my country, people who go out in public while they know that they have the virus are being put in jail. It is an extremely arrogant and inconsiderate thing to do... Does he care about the lives of his driver and security guards? Clearly not. Apparently his ego is more important.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 03:43 PM   #59
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"Deaths/Million: New Zealand - 5.2, Singapore - 4.6, South Korea - 8.2, USA - 632.6." I'd compare USA to Europe to be more accurate. Ohh, Sweden did almost nothing except lived healthy. 583 Their numbers today are near zero.

To be more fair. So little is known about this disease, no one can provide any sort of reference. It is still unknown why some people get so ill and others not. It is unlike any virus that has presented before. Those under 40 are almost immune.

Basically the first three are islands that had a different strain of the virus to being with.
Singapore is not really a free country like one might think of any European country. They locked it down at the first notion. No in or out of the country (like they had a wall). It is like a rich Cuba.
New Zealand was also able to stop all inbound and outbound travelers and did catch the virus at the very beginning.

I do like the part of view a leader by how you feel about them. So we should only hire people we like? What if a Captain of a ship is no liked but runs his ship better than a liked one? I don't like Trump but he did a good job.

If Biden got covid then the next day every late night comedian would be joking he got it from Trump. Sheeze. It was a joke. If I have to explain it then it won't be funny.
 
Old 10-05-2020, 04:31 PM   #60
eight.bit.al
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Nobody knew the best response and just did the best they could under difficult circumstances.
Not true at all. Singapore, South Korea, and others had gone through pandemics before and were quick to act, and the populations were accepting of the social responsibilities required. They offered the best examples of what to do. Unfortunately, America has a poor record of looking beyond itself for good ideas. (That's why we are still the only major country to have a for profit health care system supporting billionaire CEOs who's job is to find new ways to deny coverage for it's clients; and huge office buildings full of workers who only job is to carry out that task)

The Obama administration left a pandemic playbook, which the Trump administration tossed aside. And a pandemic office which he closed. In Trump's pettiness, he has undone everything he could with Obama's name on it, good or bad. (I'm not a big Obama fan so don't go there)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
To be more fair. So little is known about this disease, no one can provide any sort of reference. It is still unknown why some people get so ill and others not. It is unlike any virus that has presented before. Those under 40 are almost immune.
Tell that to the 5500 under forty dead of covid in the US alone. And many times that number struggling to come back from an infection, many with probable lifetime effects.

Such bovine excrement to claim "nobody knew what to do". A highly infectious disease: SARS, COVID, EBOLA, the plan is basically the same for all of them. The plan Trump tossed aside.

Quote:
I don't like Trump but he did a good job.
I'm lost to understand how anyone could claim that.

8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 10-05-2020 at 04:55 PM.
 
  


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