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Old 01-10-2021, 01:03 PM   #46
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igadoter View Post
Americans are just idiots.
What an incredibly ironic and idiotic statement. How can anyone possibly imagine that 332,000,000+ people anywhere have any one characteristic completely in common beyond physical basics like 2 eyes, 2 legs, etc? I'm reasonably convinced the Bell Curve actually applies everywhere. Just how many Americans have you actually met? Does the number constitute anything remotely useful as a statistical average?
 
Old 01-10-2021, 03:40 PM   #47
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Igadoter is not calling anyone idiots.

I recommend re-reading the whole post and not isolating words from their context.

 
Old 01-10-2021, 05:52 PM   #48
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@boughtonp is correct in that it seems @igadoter was trying to quote Putin in saying this/implying this/expressing this with body language -- a sentiment he, Putin, holds towards Americans, in general.

Okay LQers -- you're free to criticize Putin here should you think his feelings unwarranted.
Tell us why they may be unwarrranted, please!

Last edited by TorC; 01-10-2021 at 05:56 PM.
 
Old 01-11-2021, 07:44 AM   #49
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorC View Post
@boughtonp is correct in that it seems @igadoter was trying to quote Putin in saying this/implying this/expressing this with body language -- a sentiment he, Putin, holds towards Americans, in general.

Okay LQers -- you're free to criticize Putin here should you think his feelings unwarranted.
Tell us why they may be unwarrranted, please!
It seems both yourself and enorbet are both living in the same nationalistic bubble and seem to think there is still such a thing as "the good guys" (aka. the US of A) and "the bad guys" (aka. the Russians). I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you both, but that particular line is that blurred that it would be impossible for anyone to know which side of it they are really on, and that assumes that line even still exists. As I think you'll find that given how blurred it is, that particular line is blurred to the point of non-existence. The Russians would be rubbing their hands together thinking "mission accomplished" seeing how naive the average American is about this subject, not to mention the division in the US of A created as a result. On that particular point, igadoter is absolutely spot on in what they say in post #43.

There is also a reason why the NSA doesn't report all security related flaws it finds in M$ Windows to M$, and they've admitted this publicly themselves - they save the best flaws for themselves and don't report them to M$ to be fixed. I'll give you 10 points if you can guess why they don't... It's also not just by chance that the Chinese target M$ Windows when they hack my country's government networks (and NGO's for that matter), and it's because that's the very system the government and most NGO's here use. Can you therefore guess why they don't generally target Linux or some other *nix based system? Hint: I just told you the reason.

In all fairness, and as much as I dislike the poster who made post #9, the following quote is spot on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
...Underestimating Russian cyber intelligence like that is dangerously naive.
Thinking that only the Russians do that (of all large, rich and developed countries) is also dangerously naive.
...
carry on...
 
Old 01-11-2021, 09:19 AM   #50
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
It seems both yourself and enorbet are both living in the same nationalistic bubble and seem to think there is still such a thing as "the good guys" (aka. the US of A) and "the bad guys" (aka. the Russians). I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you both, but that particular line is that blurred that it would be impossible for anyone to know which side of it they are really on, and that assumes that line even still exists. As I think you'll find that given how blurred it is, that particular line is blurred to the point of non-existence. The Russians would be rubbing their hands together thinking "mission accomplished" seeing how naive the average American is about this subject, not to mention the division in the US of A created as a result. On that particular point, igadoter is absolutely spot on in what they say in post #43.
I can only speak for myself but your assessment of my position is, I think, incorrect. I suffer no illusions that things are so simple that "The US == Good Guys" and "The Russians == Bad Guys" and that was exactly my point!. It is not valid, reasonable or at all wise to use such an incredibly broad brush to paint every individual among hundreds of millions as any one thing. People are just more diverse than that.

This is how I have always thought. My Father who fought in The Battle of the Bulge in WWII used to complain about things he didn't like saying "I fought for this country and this is what it's become?". He would use this even to complain about things like anti-racism and anti-war protests during the 60s and 70s. I would ask him how he defined "country" that he defended. What did he imagine "his country" was? Was it the land? the people, and if so which people were included and which excluded? or was it the laws and ideals that it's government aspired to?

I always contended that it was the ideals aspired to and that the balance between diversity of people was in fact the lifeblood of those ideals in free country. Every living person I've ever known considers themselves basically honest even though every living person I've ever met lies sometimes, even if it's just "itty bitty white ones" in their estimation. That doesn't imply Honesty is not a worthy ideal. The reality is, in my mind, "Where do you draw the line?" Under what conditions is lying acceptable? Do you actually have Overriding Principles or just wing it on whim?

In any case I am of the opinion that any infringement or limitation on Free Speech should be considered with the utmost concern as it is extremely dangerous and usually counterproductive to allow slippery precedents in the area of ideas. I am also alarmed that what almost everyone considers The Internet is in fact a "Walled Garden" on a scale AOL only imagined in a fever dream. However I am also of the opinion that much of this is because Computers are so new, and STILL extremely underestimated as to their impact on ALL humankind no matter what national borders you reside within.

TLDR - I don't think Russians (or any other large group of people) are evil, backwards, or stupid. I don't think the US is a Camelot full of people superior in morals, intellect, or character and I'm confidant there are those in US Govt. that daily work at exactly the sort of hacks recently exposed as originating with some Russians. It's literally business as usual.
 
Old 01-11-2021, 09:34 AM   #51
teckk
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For the record.
I don't dislike any of the posters on this board, even the ones who are wrong. (As Larry the cable guy would say "Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.")

Can I ask a question of any LQ member that lives in Russia?

I don't need any one to tell me of Russian port scanning/hacking/brute force attempts on US infrastructure. I look at my Firewalls and look to see where the IP's originate. One particular group of IP addresses has been at it for months. It's clear to me that there are IP ranges that are working together under one management. Call it a botnet if you want.

If you live in Russia, do your firewalls show the same thing coming from the US, or the west? Where are the potential attacks to your infrastructure coming from? And what are these attempts at breaching your security looking for?
 
Old 01-11-2021, 10:33 AM   #52
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I can only speak for myself but your assessment of my position is, I think, incorrect. I suffer no illusions that things are so simple that "The US == Good Guys" and "The Russians == Bad Guys" and that was exactly my point!.
Well, reading your posts (and not just in this thread either), you seem to paint a very different image, as you seem to have a very nationalistic view when it comes to US domestic matters. In that, the US government is only acting in the best interests of it's people, failing to recognize that the US government's own interests and that of it's people can be two very different things.

Quote:
It is not valid, reasonable or at all wise to use such an incredibly broad brush to paint every individual among hundreds of millions as any one thing. People are just more diverse than that.
Which is just hyperbole. Where exactly did I say "every individual among hundreds of millions are all the same"?? You don't think the average Australian is at least somewhat naive when it comes to intelligence and security related matters? Well think again if that's what you think. The reality is that it would also be true that most people in virtually any other country would be naive to at least some extent. You only need to look at the division in your country to see how naive a lot of people are when it comes to intelligence and security related matters.

Quote:
...
In any case I am of the opinion that any infringement or limitation on Free Speech should be considered with the utmost concern as it is extremely dangerous and usually counterproductive to allow slippery precedents in the area of ideas. I am also alarmed that what almost everyone considers The Internet is in fact a "Walled Garden" on a scale AOL only imagined in a fever dream. However I am also of the opinion that much of this is because Computers are so new, and STILL extremely underestimated as to their impact on ALL humankind no matter what national borders you reside within.
I think you'll find that it's the focus of security and intelligence related laws that are a big part of the problem. I can use my own country as a good example in this point; after September 11, security and intelligence related laws were tightened as a part of our joining your country's "war on terror", but the focus was on giving police and security agencies all the power in the world to hunt down "terrorists" and prevent "terrorist attacks". While very little focus was put on to protecting the rights of the public to be informed, freedom of the press, and particularly protections for legitimate "whistleblowers". Therefore there's plenty of room for the government to claim that "national security" could be harmed/threatened, indeed journalists from the publicly funded ABC have been raided by the feds here. That was a day after they raided another journalist's own home, who was covering a story about the government's push for greater surveillance powers.

Here's an excerpt from the first link above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC news article
Currently, the ASD monitors and eavesdrops on conversations overseas but Australian law prevents it from monitoring the conversations of Australians in Australia.

The ASD and some in the Government want to change that — the Smethurst story was a good political story, but certainly no threat to national security.
Quote:
TLDR - I don't think Russians (or any other large group of people) are evil, backwards, or stupid. I don't think the US is a Camelot full of people superior in morals, intellect, or character and I'm confidant there are those in US Govt. that daily work at exactly the sort of hacks recently exposed as originating with some Russians. It's literally business as usual.
Yeah, it's business as usual alright... for the Russians most certainly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
For the record.
I don't dislike any of the posters on this board, even the ones who are wrong.
...
While I don't remember mentioning your name anywhere in the post you refer to; that was the point I was making: a truth is still a truth, regardless of who exactly mentions it, and for that matter, regardless of whether you like it or not.

Seems I struck a nerve there...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-11-2021 at 10:37 AM. Reason: addition
 
Old 01-11-2021, 11:05 AM   #53
TorC
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@jsbjsb01 -- I see raising contoversy is still a primary goal of yours. Why people here have tolerated this for so long is evidence this is still a country that practices Freedom of Speech. For how much longer, I do not know nor pretend to know. We could easily become like New Zealand within the next four years. Enjoy it while it lasts!
 
Old 01-11-2021, 11:31 AM   #54
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorC View Post
@jsbjsb01 -- I see raising contoversy is still a primary goal of yours.
I've responded making relevant points in relation to the thread topic. Again, where was I wrong? It sounds like you just don't like what your reading, but yet ask for comments anyway. Why start a thread in the first place if you don't like people making valid points? Or was this a thread only for those that agree with you, and/or who won't say anything bad about the US of A?

Quote:
Why people here have tolerated this for so long is evidence this is still a country that practices Freedom of Speech.
I'm not living in your country (thank god), and this is a public internet forum.

Quote:
For how much longer, I do not know nor pretend to know. We could easily become like New Zealand within the next four years. Enjoy it while it lasts!
What's wrong with New Zealand? As unlike your country, they are a real democracy, instead of flawed democracy like your country is...

...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-11-2021 at 11:36 AM. Reason: additions
 
Old 01-11-2021, 12:33 PM   #55
hazel
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For goodness sake, give it a rest, you two. You'll get the thread closed if you turn it into a personal vendetta.
 
Old 01-11-2021, 05:25 PM   #56
jeremy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
For goodness sake, give it a rest, you two. You'll get the thread closed if you turn it into a personal vendetta.
hazel is correct.

--jeremy
 
Old 01-11-2021, 05:53 PM   #57
ferrari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorC View Post
@jsbjsb01 -- I see raising contoversy is still a primary goal of yours. Why people here have tolerated this for so long is evidence this is still a country that practices Freedom of Speech. For how much longer, I do not know nor pretend to know. We could easily become like New Zealand within the next four years. Enjoy it while it lasts!
I have no idea about what you’re inferring here, but right now in the world I would argue that democracy is and quality of life is good here, when I compare it with other “Western” counties, and the pandemic/political news being reported currently.
 
Old 01-13-2021, 05:50 AM   #58
enorbet
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[QUOTE=jsbjsb001;6206423]Well, reading your posts (and not just in this thread either), you seem to paint a very different image, as you seem to have a very nationalistic view when it comes to US domestic matters. In that, the US government is only acting in the best interests of it's people, failing to recognize that the US government's own interests and that of it's people can be two very different things.[quote]

Very nationalistic view eh? I suppose it is somehow possible that someone could take my posts that way since you apparently did but it is so polar opposite to my principles that I must ask you to find at least one quote that demonstrates how you came to this conclusion. I sincerely would like to see what could possibly result in such a translation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Which is just hyperbole. Where exactly did I say "every individual among hundreds of millions are all the same"?? You don't think the average Australian is at least somewhat naive when it comes to intelligence and security related matters? Well think again if that's what you think. The reality is that it would also be true that most people in virtually any other country would be naive to at least some extent. You only need to look at the division in your country to see how naive a lot of people are when it comes to intelligence and security related matters.
Perhaps I was mistaken but I took it that you were saying Igadoter's comment (which I may well have taken incorrectly as face value) was "100% spot on" and my response to his post was that it is absurd to say all of the citizens of any very large group, let alone a nation of hundreds of millions, are idiots. That you proceed to cite groups within the larger group seems to agree with what I have said. It's not 100%. The Bell Curve applies. I suspect you are on one slope of that curve and view the other slope as "idiots". That still isn't an entire nation and seems to add credence to my point.
 
Old 01-23-2021, 12:33 PM   #59
business_kid
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Oh dear. I'm not at all upset by the Russians hacking the US, or vice-versa, which would be expressed in the form "dogged intelligence action," or somesuch. Nor was I upset by the U.S. hacking Iranian nuclear facilities. In fact, the more malefactors attack and hack each other, the less likelihood of them turning on me

For me, the best take I saw on it was that of Andy Borowitz, the Satirist. He had the (pre-election) headline: "Russian Hackers disappointed to find the American Government ALREADY disabled…"

@enorbet & @ferrari: Please do not continue using the word "you" in your post. As I see it, you're each repackaging the other's viewpoint to no good purpose. The result is an argument. Both of you are quite well able to express your own opinions.

Last edited by business_kid; 01-23-2021 at 12:36 PM.
 
Old 01-23-2021, 03:00 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
@enorbet & @ferrari: Please do not continue using the word "you" in your post. As I see it, you're each repackaging the other's viewpoint to no good purpose. The result is an argument. Both of you are quite well able to express your own opinions.
I have no idea about what you're on about here, but I'll read,evaluate, and agree or disagree as I see fit thanks. Stay on your own path.
 
  


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