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Old 05-07-2021, 04:28 AM   #16
business_kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho
[Originally Posted by business_kid]
I can see why Samsung reserve the right to repair to themselves.

You can?
I believe the new legislature is specifically making this sort of practice illegal.
It's actually the best repair compromise. Set up one place where repairs can be churned through with specialised equipment, trained staff, etc. That's the repair guy in me talking, but I notice that others feel differently. It has to be price sensitive, but the economics of it make sense. I worked a lot on getting the returns down - the numbers of failed repairs. The more I saw of any particular board, the less it came back. Anyhow, whatever law is passed in the Excited States, I won't be agitating one way or the other.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 09:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
  • All devices are now Surface mount, and the same device is sold in smaller and smaller packages. So large scale SMT is also obsolete.
    [...]
  • These large surface mounted chips we see everywhere can only be soldered in wave solder machines, and not desoldered. You have to put ≅250C on a pin to de-solder it, but the junction it's connected to melts at ≅150C
As I understand it, multi-layer PCBs have also added to the difficulty of component level repair. Failed PCBs are just designed to be thrown away - and if anything but a simple electrolytic cap fails, they're often considered "beyond repair".

Smarthpones/tablets are another matter - they're carrying on the fine tradition of laptops where you can spend hours and risk breaking the thing just trying to get it open - as they're put together in all manner of "weird and wonderful" ways. Ultimately, they were engineered for automated / production line assembly, not for people to assemble (never mind disassemble) and the design goals are "small", "thin", aesthetics, etc.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 09:57 AM   #18
business_kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
As I understand it, multi-layer PCBs have also added to the difficulty of component level repair. Failed PCBs are just designed to be thrown away - and if anything but a simple electrolytic cap fails, they're often considered "beyond repair".

Smarthpones/tablets are another matter - they're carrying on the fine tradition of laptops where you can spend hours and risk breaking the thing just trying to get it open - as they're put together in all manner of "weird and wonderful" ways. Ultimately, they were engineered for automated / production line assembly, not for people to assemble (never mind disassemble) and the design goals are "small", "thin", aesthetics, etc.
Exactly, but I'm long-winded enough already without covering all of that. You're dead right bout multi-layer PCBs. A guy with the schematic can tell where a lead goes. I never got schematics unless the board was pure junk. But folks took to designing pcbs with a solid earth layer. Before that, you could put a strong light behind to see where the tracks led. I've even detect broken tracks that way. With an earth layer, you have no chance.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 10:10 AM   #19
business_kid
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Just out:https://news.slashdot.org/story/21/0...roduct-repairs

Haven't even read it myself. I gather it's published by the Federal Trade Comission. Are they a consumer rights lot in the pocket of manufacturers?
 
Old 05-07-2021, 11:12 AM   #20
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That's an excellent report. I particularly liked this bit:
Quote:
While debates around right to repair rules in the EU have tended to focus on the environmental impact of sending broken devices to landfills, the FTC's report leads with the impacts they have on people. It says repair restrictions are bad for consumers when they can't easily repair their devices, and adds that these "may place a greater financial burden on communities of color and lower-income Americans." Independent repair shops also suffer as a result of repair restrictions, "disproportionately [affecting] small businesses owned by people of color."
I must say, I hadn't thought of it like that. Being European, I was much more annoyed with the electronic waste problem.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 12:18 PM   #21
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The part where so called "communities of color" are separated from "lower-income Americans" rather telling - especially where "lower-income Americans" would have been a catch all for both groups. It's actually not the best kind of reasoning for "right to repair", and I still believe environmental concerns and consumer rights - regardless of income, social standing, race, etc should be at the fore of the argument.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 12:25 PM   #22
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Divide and conquer.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 01:06 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
It's actually not the best kind of reasoning for "right to repair", and I still believe environmental concerns and consumer rights - regardless of income, social standing, race, etc should be at the fore of the argument.
It's not meant to be the best kind of reasoning. It's meant to hitch a lift on one of the most powerful bandwagons of the modern age. If you can show that something adversely affects black people, everyone will agree that things have to change.
 
Old 05-07-2021, 10:52 PM   #24
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The reason things aren't repairable is because the large number of people who would even want to, is still a very very small percentage. Laws don't change this. For me, I want my computers/phones to last as long as possible, and I do my best to buy accordingly. Anymore it seems like most people don't care about this. There's always the "latest" to get and you're still using what? isn't that about a year old!!?? Mine's got 3 extra wide cameras, plus... yada..yada...



I think open-source has contributed greatly to repairability.

Several things come to mind such as CNC/3D printers and Arduino/RaspberryPi/clones. Without open-source these would be nothing since they would be by far to expensive. And repairing anything on my I3/reprap clone is rather simple and cheap. Not to mention the frame itself can be printed... on itself.

There are also several phones such as the Fairfone and the PinePhone that are designed to be repaired by the user. But these are by far a minority, hardly even showing up on the scale.

What we really need is a open-source project to develop a tank ink-jet printer that is completely user buildable/repairable and actually works with Linux out of the box. All that somebody would need to do is develop a arduino shield and it would take off.


 
Old 05-08-2021, 02:13 AM   #25
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Louis Rossman about Apple and the Norwegian government
 
Old 05-08-2021, 03:40 AM   #26
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The fact is that whoever has done the R&D and made (or contracted) manufactureod it holds the whip hand, because no significant repair can be done without them.

Britain has a kitemark, the EU has a CE mark, and I don't know what it is in the Excited States. Maybe repair-ability should be built in at that point, so the items can't go on sale without meeting standards for repair?
 
Old 05-08-2021, 04:55 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
The reason things aren't repairable is because the large number of people who would even want to, is still a very very small percentage. Laws don't change this.
When I was growing up, people didn't repair things either. But there were men who did, professionally. For each kind of appliance, there were places you could drop it off to have it fixed when it went wrong. Or if it was a fixed thing like a geyser, there were men who came to you and fixed it. I remember that for gas appliances in particular, you could buy spare parts at the gas show room, and then someone would come and put that part in. My mother bought an Ascot geyser in 1945 because she couldn't face washing my nappies without running hot water. It was still in place when we left that house in 1964. Some of its parts had been replaced but otherwise it was the same machine.
 
Old 05-08-2021, 10:12 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
When I was growing up, people didn't repair things either. But there were men who did, professionally. For each kind of appliance, there were places you could drop it off to have it fixed when it went wrong. Or if it was a fixed thing like a geyser, there were men who came to you and fixed it. I remember that for gas appliances in particular, you could buy spare parts at the gas show room, and then someone would come and put that part in. My mother bought an Ascot geyser in 1945 because she couldn't face washing my nappies without running hot water. It was still in place when we left that house in 1964. Some of its parts had been replaced but otherwise it was the same machine.
Ah...memory lane; it shows us how much the world has changed. We had a 'geyser' too. It wasn't a hot spout out of the ground - it was a gas operated heater. Ours ran from the 1950s (or earlier) for decades. It was still there when we sold the house in 2008. Ours was for baths. We also had a back boiler in a coke fire in the kitchen which heated the hot water. And if the back boiler started boiling, it would start making noise, and you would have to run off some hot water. The new guy next door didn't know this and ended heating his entire hot water tank in the attic through the hot water overflow.

One of my early jobs was as a wages clerk. The tradesman's rate was 0.5725p = 0.73, which gave 29.08 per week to feed a family. The US dollar was worth 0.375p. Parts, storage & transport were cheaper. Labour was much cheaper. Replacement costs were huge. So many (like myself) were self-taught repairmen. I moved by accident into electronics from being a motor bike grease monkey.

But the viability of repairing has gone. Parts, labour, storage & transport all went up while replacement came down. The desire to repair and minimize costs remains. And the current "Right to Repair" debate will decide how much (if at all) manufacturers have to accommodate that.
 
Old 05-08-2021, 11:41 AM   #29
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I replaced another switch on my mechanical keyboard. This is one of the few electronic products that are repairable. I am not sure whether the problem was a worn-out switch or a failed solder joint. Replacing the switch solved both.

I have also retouched the solder joints on mouse buttons. The switch and PCB flex slightly with use. Eventually the solder joint fails.
Ed
 
Old 05-10-2021, 11:28 AM   #30
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For those in the UK, there is a talk on this subject on Radio 4 at 9.00 pm.
 
  


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