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Old 10-31-2019, 08:24 AM   #76
Myk267
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So, given enough RMS fanboys, you can advocate for pedophilia on your blog and harass women and it's business as usual?
 
Old 10-31-2019, 08:38 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk267 View Post
So, given enough RMS fanboys, you can advocate for pedophilia on your blog and harass women and it's business as usual?
Read the thread again. Your post is a trollpost: inaccurate, misinformed and only existent to generate an emotional reaction from the forum. Have another read and come back with a solid, less inflammatory argument.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 09:13 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk267 View Post
So, given enough RMS fanboys, you can advocate for pedophilia on your blog and harass women and it's business as usual?
I'll speak for myself and say, I most certainly do not agree with everything RMS says. But it doesn't excuse hanging someone out to dry for simply asking for actual evidence, before jumping on some viral bandwagon. It's the most fundamental principle in any legitimate legal system anywhere, "innocent until proven guilty". A trial by "social media" or mere accusation is not a proper place, nor a proper court, nor a proper way of deciding one's guilt or innocence, period - that's exactly why we have proper courts, that rely on proper evidence being provided.

Do you mind citing where exactly RMS "advocates for pedophilia, and harassing women" ? Because as said above, posting baseless accusations is no better than what you're accusing RMS of in your post above...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 10-31-2019 at 09:40 AM. Reason: spelling fix
 
Old 10-31-2019, 09:53 AM   #79
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I'm just now catching wind of this...and I am also around the same time frame stepping back into Linux hardcore.

When I first started with Linux (almost 20 years ago) and learning about some of the history with Linus and Richard Stallman...I remember I downloaded and watched Revolution OS. That was the first time I actually could put names to faces. And I just totally dug Stallman and his philosophy. I have found that I enjoy community collaboration...brings people together for good things. I am involved with other parts of my life that are basically "community" based with very positive folks and outlooks on life. But the GNU/Linux community was one of the first I discovered. I am not much for a programmer but I like that the option is there if I wish to contribute something.

As some things I have seen in this thread already (haven't read the whole thing), I definitely agree on some points that basically in this day and age, free speech seems to be a slippery slope of a freedom. Say what you want, but be prepared for the consequences...offending folks, misinterpretations, litigation, etc...especially if you are somewhat in the public eye. Seen many celebs and the like fall into deep holes due to words being said.

I hate that all this has happened to Stallman but it's the times we live in unfortunately. On another level though, he is basically at retirement age and has made a huge mark on the computing world, so it probably is a good time for him to bow out from major things and enjoy his retired life. He strikes me as the kind who would work until he died though.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 10:51 AM   #80
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I'd rather not say this, but I think some people need to review what free speech really is. As has been mentioned by someone before, for the case of the U.S., the argument generally starts with the notion that there are self-evident truths giving people inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Free speech is a secondary artifact of this and is established by law. Your right to free speech ends when you compromise someone else's inalienable rights. And nobody seems to get it that people other than themselves have these inalienable rights.

It never meant that you had the right to spout off whatever thought came to your mind with no consequences. I can recall a particular restaurant where an 80 year old man was a regular. Often, he would in and greet those he knew, and within half a minute spout off some ethnic slur against those of a particular neighboring country. It might be funny for him and his friends, but no one else wants to hear it, and yes, if made public, people will feel that their very right to life has been questioned. Likewise, we see similar things on these forums disguised as civil debates. As an example, someone named "Geist" in this thread, particularly post #95 crosses a line when he (or she) implies that LGBT people should never be seen in any positive light, and that one's proper place is essentially just to procreate. Particularly, comments like that discussing blood line should never even see the light of day - some "leaders" ed their countries by that line of argument in living memory only to cause the slaughter of millions needlessly. The consequences of these lines of thought have already been seen. Wake up already. Those kinds of discussions contribute nothing in an educated society, and the whole reason CoC's are cropping up everywhere is to weed out stuff like that, at least in the workplace.

However everyone knows that's not how they are being implemented. And scaring people into the idea that anything they say is being recorded and will be used against them 20 years from now isn't the answer. A more balanced approach is to look into what someone says, and how someone acts, within a reasonably recent time frame so that a better picture of the situation can be drawn. And trolling is not free speech in any context. RMS never advocated abuse - unlike some "leader" nowadays - and that unjust statements like that can get momentum in this society says more about the society itself than the system around it.

With that said, the "statement" made by Bradley Kuhn doesn't look good. When I followed the contained hyperlinks I'm not seeing the "progression" that the author is trying to make. And if RMS could reasonably prove that his words are being deliberately taken out of context in an effort to defame him, that statement could easily be grounds for a libel suit. I don't think anyone who has taken any writing class missed the part that when you quote sources, you actually have to quote the meaning and not just the words.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 06:46 PM   #81
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
citing where exactly RMS "advocates for pedophilia
He changed his position about on that (note that this was only published after this whole thing blew up)

https://stallman.org/archives/2019-j...hild_is_wrong)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Stallman
14 September 2019 (Sex between an adult and a child is wrong)

Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.

Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
Previous statements:
https://stallman.org/archives/2013-j...3_(Pedophilia)
https://stallman.org/archives/2006-m...tical%20party)
 
Old 10-31-2019, 07:10 PM   #82
orbea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ordealbyfire83 View Post
And if RMS could reasonably prove that his words are being deliberately taken out of context in an effort to defame him, that statement could easily be grounds for a libel suit. I don't think anyone who has taken any writing class missed the part that when you quote sources, you actually have to quote the meaning and not just the words.
I kind of doubt RMS is going to sue anyone regardless, but its entirely obvious for anyone that read the actual e-mails that what he said in context did not mean the things claimed by some media sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMS
All I know she said about Minsky is that Epstein directed her to have
sex with Minksy. That does not say whether Minsky knew that she was
coerced. It does not report wht each said and did during their
sexual encounter. We can imagine various scenarios.

We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein. She
was being harmed. But the details do affect whether, and to what
extent, Minsky was responsible for that.
https://imgur.com/a/eEGGm2N

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...&sidebar=false

Personally I think anyone in that situation should of at least realized it was some seriously flawed judgement to participate.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 04:52 AM   #83
zeebra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I'll speak for myself and say, I most certainly do not agree with everything RMS says. But it doesn't excuse hanging someone out to dry for simply asking for actual evidence, before jumping on some viral bandwagon. It's the most fundamental principle in any legitimate legal system anywhere, "innocent until proven guilty". A trial by "social media" or mere accusation is not a proper place, nor a proper court, nor a proper way of deciding one's guilt or innocence, period - that's exactly why we have proper courts, that rely on proper evidence being provided.
The system of evidence and innocent until proven guilty has been made obsolete in favour of pitchfork justice.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 04:54 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basslord1124 View Post
I hate that all this has happened to Stallman but it's the times we live in unfortunately. On another level though, he is basically at retirement age and has made a huge mark on the computing world, so it probably is a good time for him to bow out from major things and enjoy his retired life. He strikes me as the kind who would work until he died though.
I agree, I was thinking the same thing actually. Had it been 10 years ago it would have been worse. Besides, Stallman continues his work at/as GNU.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 08:40 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
He changed his position about on that (note that this was only published after this whole thing blew up)
Even before he changed his position, it was never clear to me as to what exactly he was talking about. There is a huge difference between e.g. a 17 3/4 year old and a younger child.

Adults may marry 16 and 17 years olds, legally here in the UK and in other parts of the world, usually with permission of a parent. Age of consent here is 16, whereas in the US I understand it differs from state to state - and it's different worldwide.

It's not clear to me if Stallman was talking about this kind of thing and just wording it very badly and being far too ambiguous about it all.

I find many of his views as expressed, including those cited, disturbing nonetheless (especially as he uses the word "children"), but unless he has committed an actual crime, rather than just thought crime...

He has consistently come across as a socially impaired individual, who has no concept of how his views and opinions may upset or be abhorrent to others. His biggest failing has been in mixing those views with his software ideology - an ideology which I personally don't subscribe to either - but in doing so has harmed that 'mission'.

Last edited by cynwulf; 11-01-2019 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 06:08 PM   #86
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
...it was never clear to me as to what exactly he was talking about... He has consistently come across as a socially impaired individual, who has no concept of how his views and opinions may upset or be abhorrent to others...
Our society has bascally criminalised social impairment. If we don't need to make allowances for social impairment because of age then we also don't need to replace steps with ramps in public places.

For what it's worth, his expressions of his original and modified opinions are very close to what I've heard from some 13-16 year olds trying to work out, formalise or justify their positions on social issues (including age of consent); any sixteen year old would not have had to face the same consequences as RMS.
 
Old 11-02-2019, 12:40 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Even before he changed his position, it was never clear to me as to what exactly he was talking about. There is a huge difference between e.g. a 17 3/4 year old and a younger child.
[...]
It's not clear to me if Stallman was talking about this kind of thing and just wording it very badly and being far too ambiguous about it all.
No, it seems he's rather a stickler about the precise definitions of terms (indeed, that's how he got in trouble in the first place). He clearly doesn't use the term "pedophile" for cases involving a 17 3/4 year old (I guess ephebophilia or hebephilia applies), see https://stallman.org/notes/2019-jan-...l_for_Epstein)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Stallman
I disagree with some of what the article says about Epstein. Epstein is not, apparently, a pedophile, since the people he raped seem to have all been postpuberal.
[...]
I think the right term for a person such as Epstein is "serial rapist".
 
Old 11-02-2019, 02:30 PM   #88
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It would be very helpful if we could get a list of topics that academically qualified philosophers are still allowed to touch without destroying their careers.

I know there's a list, they just never publish the damned thing. It's like an invisible fence-- you'll know it's there when it jolts you.
 
Old 11-03-2019, 04:45 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
It would be very helpful if we could get a list of topics that academically qualified philosophers are still allowed to touch without destroying their careers.

I know there's a list, they just never publish the damned thing. It's like an invisible fence-- you'll know it's there when it jolts you.
"They" usually keep manila envelopes with information on the ready when a public figure is determined to be dispensable. That's old news.
 
  


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