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Old 10-01-2019, 04:23 AM   #16
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ordealbyfire83 View Post
How safe is GNU itself, in the sense of the software? All this talk about the FSF, yet Mr Stallman says he is still the "Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project." The gnu.org page has FSF all over it (even saying (C) 1996-2019 Free Software Foundation, Inc. at the bottom). It sounds like we also need to follow the money INTO the FSF and out the other side. Who's getting paid to do what?
They release a financial statement every year. I'm not sure it is as finely-detailed as you (or even I) would like, but it fulfills the requirements of a registered 501c3 organisation.

To those who have mentioned my ability to comment on details:

I would! But those who have flatteringly assumed I know more about these things, I'm still working on figuring it out myself. And that means waiting to talk to people who know, if they're out there. Although I submit articles to Techrights and do my own research, Roy runs circles around that-- he knows more about much of this than I do.

To Hazel: I don't think this is the free software community, per se. Although this little bon mot is something I've already condemned: https://community.fsfe.org/t/richard...undation/324/8

I don't think a community is adequately represented by its traitors.

Incidentally, I believe that a person's ownership of a server is quite relevant to the general ability to do more or less what they please with it, so long as it's legal. There are things to consider when that server becomes a platform for public expression from a multitude of people that change the game somewhat, but in short I wouldn't presume to tell Jeremy what to do.

With that said, any debate about whether General should be temporarily closed, that would be a shame. I do not view this subforum as recreational, but important to free software at this time. I believe there are a few trolls trying to shut down threads, and it would be a shame to let them disable an entire subforum, even for a couple of weeks.

There's a war going on, and a lot of the people here are on the right side of it. They certainly didn't start it, but we ought to let them finish it. The role this subforum plays is an opportunity to keep things from getting too "behind the scenes." It is better if we decide to keep these discussions as mainstream as possible. I'll quote a thread I participated in less than a month prior to Stallman getting forced out (not by the board.)

Quote:
I also participate in a number of forums and comment boards dealing with politics and current affairs. When I want my fix of overt conflict and aggression, I head on over to those venues for my hit. And there are thousands of similar venues that I can visit with no more effort than the click of a mouse.

But I've always valued UF as a sanctuary and a respite from such conflict. Were it to turn into just another politicized, polarized, jingoistic mudfest, I would be out of here faster than you could say "RMS".
The apolitical nature of the Ubuntu forums is a disservice to its community. I know we all want to protect people from the thought of conflicts that we are mired in.

If we simply toss those matters aside, the people suffering from them are relatively unrepresented. It's better to have an active (positive) role in some online conflicts, than to pretend they don't exist. I'd rather trolls be banned for a while, than forums get locked down for a while. There just aren't enough places for large numbers of people to have these discussions anymore. Places like General really aren't a dime a dozen these days.
 
Old 10-01-2019, 05:13 AM   #17
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
...
Absolutely no need to apologise to me, at least, the reason why I included your quote in the OP is because I wholeheartedly agree with it. It cuts to the quick of what this very important issue is about. This is not just about RMS or LQ, it goes way beyond that. RMS's situation is a microcosmic representation of what is happening to our society and culture in the West.
No worries Lysander666, sorry for the confusion.

I totally agree with your above comments about the situation we find ourselves in. It's a real shame that movements like what FSF was originally about are hijacked by politics. Such movements should be apolitical, and open to all genders, races, etc. Personally, what's happening here goes against what "free software" is all about (or perhaps was/used to be all about as it seems). Being, it should be about being open to everyone that wants to contribute, and about bringing people into the fold. Not about "getting rid of people because they don't tow the right political line", it's a real shame that we see this sad state of affairs. All I can say is; I hope those responsible for this are happy with themselves. What a disgrace.
 
Old 10-01-2019, 09:03 AM   #18
Lysander666
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This is definitely a smear campaign. In case anyone missed it, this photo was - still is, actually - included in Selam's original article calling for RMS's removal.

However, as outspoken feminist Syvlia Paull says in her defence of Stallman:

Quote:
As an active feminist and one who has witnessed much bad behavior among tech CEOs over the past 30 years, I think that accusing Richard Stallman of not supporting women, gays, or any other minority group is false. Look at his real history — not the sign about welcoming “hot ladies” on his MIT Media lab office door, which someone else wrote as a joke and which he removed but not before someone took a photo of it — but his record in helping to give everyone in the world access to free software. He has truly made our world a better, more free place.
https://medium.com/@whoisylvia/richa...m-a3907b25b4c7

If you dare go onto Twitter for a second, you'll see that apparently the very reason the FSF exists is because it enables him to harass women.

Last edited by Lysander666; 10-01-2019 at 09:39 AM.
 
Old 10-01-2019, 09:37 AM   #19
cynwulf
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The original blog/article comes across as a deliberate, calculated and constructed character assassination of Stallman - but in fact it's more or less "outrage" which has been harnessed and utilised to form the basis for exactly that.

The way the original (redacted) email thread was leaked to vice.com, protecting the identities of all participants except Stallman, the way it was actually very carefully redacted and efficiently released in the first place, is odd to say the least...

vice.com... of all low grade media was selected, which is hardly spotless itself: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/b...arassment.html

Saying that, I don't think people should blame this young lady, but instead recognise just how flawed this whole set up is - and focus on the media vultures and agenda driven parties with corporate interests who have seized on this.

Last edited by cynwulf; 10-01-2019 at 09:38 AM.
 
Old 10-01-2019, 06:46 PM   #20
ChuangTzu
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FYI: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...6/#post6040821
 
Old 10-03-2019, 07:33 PM   #21
freemedia2018
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Quote:
What Stallman has not cottoned onto is that 'free speech' is, for better or worse, becoming a modern-day myth. Just look around you. Everything is watched and everything is logged and one can easily be pulled up on it to further another's ambitions. Those who express certain opinions that they used to be able to can one day pay penance for them. In the UK we are no longer a democracy or even an oligarchy, we are what's called in China 'meizhi' - under the rule of the media..
There is a statute of limitations for most crimes (not murder) and there certainly should be for offensive words.

It should not even be Legal to fire someone for an opinion they had 20 years ago. That should really be considered a form of discrimination and harassment (and stalking.) This hardly is just being said because of Stallman. The thought police should not be in charge of hiring and firing in the first place.
 
Old 10-07-2019, 04:40 PM   #22
ntubski
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https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint...e-gnu-project/

Quote:
Joint statement on the GNU Project

A collective of GNU maintainers — October 7, 2019

We, the undersigned GNU maintainers and developers, owe a debt of gratitude to Richard Stallman for his decades of important work in the free software movement. Stallman tirelessly emphasized the importance of computer user freedom and laid the foundation for his vision to become a reality by starting the development of the GNU operating system. For that we are truly grateful.

Yet, we must also acknowledge that Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value of the GNU project: the empowerment of all computer users. GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to.

We believe that Richard Stallman cannot represent all of GNU. We think it is now time for GNU maintainers to collectively decide about the organization of the project. The GNU Project we want to build is one that everyone can trust to defend their freedom.
 
Old 10-07-2019, 05:39 PM   #23
cynwulf
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Instead of queuing up to kick Stallman, they could just take their project elsewhere...
 
Old 10-07-2019, 06:49 PM   #24
astrogeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Instead of queuing up to kick Stallman, they could just take their project elsewhere...
Indeed! But that would not leave them in control of GNU, would it?

Quote:
Blah... blah... blah...
Yet, we must also acknowledge that Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value of the GNU project: the empowerment of all computer users. GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to.
Must we?

How so?

Did they not have a single specific example to cite illustrating Mr. Stallman's failed leadership? Not even one?

Apparently not... in the heat of mob violence a simple pointing of the finger and a shout of "We must... get him!" is usually sufficient.

Clearly this "collective" (aka mob) thinks it sufficient to point their finger in the crowd and hope that the light of fires already burning will reflect enough to ignite the next... then the next...

Quote:
The GNU Project we want to build is one that everyone can trust to defend their freedom.
Well, everyone except Richard Stallman and others "we" disagree with!

Be very afraid.

Last edited by astrogeek; 10-07-2019 at 07:43 PM.
 
Old 10-07-2019, 07:40 PM   #25
Ser Olmy
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Yet, we must also acknowledge that Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value of the GNU project: the empowerment of all computer users. GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to.
That's the most disgusting smear I've read in a long time.

What kind of horrible human being do you have to be to claim that Richard Stallman, the man who invented the concept of Free Software and the copyleft license, stands in the way of "empowering users"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
Must we?

How so?

Did they not have a single specific example to cite illustrating Mr. Stallman's failed leadership? Not even one?
And we all know why that is.

I guess it's time to defund the FSF. I hope the sane individuals still involved with this organization will have the sense to jump ship and start an alternative.
 
Old 10-07-2019, 08:09 PM   #26
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
Indeed! But that would not leave them in control of GNU, would it?



Must we?

How so?

Did they not have a single specific example to cite illustrating Mr. Stallman's failed leadership? Not even one?

Apparently not... in the heat of mob violence a simple pointing of the finger and a shout of "We must... get him!" is usually sufficient.

Clearly this "collective" (aka mob) thinks it sufficient to point their finger in the crowd and hope that the light of fires already burning will reflect enough to ignite the next... then the next...



Well, everyone except Richard Stallman and others "we" disagree with!

Be very afraid.
Just yell "FIRE" then convince the people that they really did see smoke and flames. Oldest scam in the book.
https://www.amazon.com/Propaganda-Ed.../dp/0970312598
https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psy...=UTF8&me=&qid=
 
Old 10-08-2019, 04:56 AM   #27
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The timing suggests they've thought this through, but the wording suggests otherwise. Ever since first downloading GNUChess, I've thought of the GNU project and its software as being welcoming to all and free for all to use. This announcement seems to be saying the project no longer welcomes people with poor social skills, regardless of their intentions or abilities.

Yes, I do think this has more to do with RMS' politics than his "behaviour", but even if we take the announcement at face value it does not look good for GNU.

I can see some justification in preferring socially adept leaders - they tend to be (relatively) good at politics, which would help a project like GNU, especially if it wants to grow - but not enough to justify pushing out the most awkward leader rather than finding ways to work with him. That is not an example of inclusion, and has not been deemed necessary in the past couple of decades.


"Made with ♥ by humans and powered by GNU Guile." (from the page with the announcement linked above.) Who do the project's leaders still love, and is "Guile" only a programming language?

Last edited by Pastychomper; 10-08-2019 at 04:59 AM.
 
Old 10-08-2019, 06:35 AM   #28
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It's quite amazing how one can seemingly undermine the values of one's own project. It's also quite amazing that one can define such values in the first place and that others can somehow determine that you have undermined said values...

They seem like some very confused individuals, incapable of separating "news(tm)" from fact. They should stick to trying to write code and accept that software developers can be a little eccentric.

For me they will go down in history as a collection of "plotters" who conspired and threw their project leader under the bus.

I expect the new "GNU CoC", based on some feminist / LGBT publication no doubt, to be released within months, to thunderous applause...
 
Old 10-08-2019, 08:22 AM   #29
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There has always been an appreciable overlap between computer hackers and people on the autism spectrum. One characteristic of even mildly autistic people is their general lack of social skills. They have no filters; they tend to blurt out whatever they think at the moment. If you want society to profit from the undoubted talents of such people, you must put up with their tactlessness.

People who always say the politically correct thing usually have nothing else worthwhile to say.
 
Old 10-08-2019, 09:49 AM   #30
rokytnji
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Just another case of live by the lip. Die by the lip. Being semi infamous. It is just more noticeable.

I visit his site from time to time. He still looks to help out man kind. So what he is opinionated. I have yet to meet a person who is not.

I see no bitterness there : But I am blind in my left eye with a cataract. So I could miss something.

I used to take those free MIT courses also that are offered online.
https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

So my take is. Both are helping out generally and it is sad politics killed the messenger because they do not like his lip. But I expect him to land

on his feet just like my female cat when I throw her off my desk. Since he is on the down slope of life like some of us here in age. With tons of experience.

People with too much time on their hands that point fingers. I usually recognize the chumps for what they are. I pay more attention to solutions. Not blame.

Edit: I just find hard to be out raged because I live in the boonies away from society.

Last edited by rokytnji; 10-08-2019 at 10:00 AM.
 
  


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