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Old 04-04-2019, 04:25 AM   #16
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I guess the anti-brexiteers didn't think people would vote for brexit, and neither did the pro-brexiteers either. The consequence is that, nobody knows what to do now given brexit is exactly the way the vote went.
No deal, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I wonder how people would vote if they did hold a second "people's vote" ?
Probably the same result.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 06:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Probably the same result.
It most likely will be close again, the UK IS divided, but it may well go just as close the other way. And any way: a no-deal brexit will hit the people hard.
Just about 49% of im- and exports of the UK go from and to the EU and they will become more costly. Travelling on holidays will get more complicated and you'll get much less toerists (from the EU) too.

Then, I do not see any reason why France would expend so much efforts to prevent immigrants to get to the UK, so the British will have to do much more on their side (which will cost the government a lot too). Unless the government gets back to business the Eurostar trains to Belgium and The Netherlands may have to be cancelled too (there is NO custom trade agreement about passengers with these countries, they did make a last minute deal with France).
 
Old 04-04-2019, 06:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Well it obviously isn't working very well, given she's asking for yet another extension from the EU. It looks like the "hard-line brexiteers" are voting down the deal to try and get a "hard brexit", and the others to try and get a "people's vote", or maybe a "softer deal/brexit", to me from what I can see from a far.
May is working with/for the EU/global business interests to force the deal through - at any cost. May is already done for post Brexit anyway, she knows this.

She really has the choice, others such as Cameron and before that Blair had - put party political interests first or that of the economy/business, history will (has) decide which... May has unsuccessfully tried to play both sides and the result is where we're at now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I guess the anti-brexiteers didn't think people would vote for brexit, and neither did the pro-brexiteers either. The consequence is that, nobody knows what to do now given brexit is exactly the way the vote went.
Cameron took a gamble and put it in the party's manifesto and then went for it in 2016. Cameron never believed the people would go for it and it's also been said believed the coalition partners at the time, the Liberal Democrats would still be around to block it. The 2015 general election result and the large Tory majority gained there obviously changed that.

The fact that Cameron resigned on the announcement of the result, was an admission that this was not the planned result... another remain supporter, May, replaced him. So Cameron's resignation makes even less sense.

So "carrying out Brexit" is being executed, in some cases unwillingly, by a combination of remainers and Brexiteers and the result is this tug of war - the end result being either a disastrous hard Brexit, or just remaining as we are / getting into something like a Norway style agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I wonder how people would vote if they did hold a second "people's vote" ? It would be very interesting, somehow I suspect people might not want to leave the EU if they did hold another "people's vote", given the disaster that's unfolded.
Another referendum would probably result in a resounding win for the remain vote. Now that people have seen this mess, have cooled off, have seen the state the country is already in, have mostly seen through the utter lies which were spun on the run up to the referendum, there are going to be a lot of changed minds.

The Brexiteers don't want another referendum, they believe that we cannot simply rerun referendums because of an undesired result. This is technically true, but equally, the Brexiteers don't want to rerun the referendum, because they know full well that the result will be very different to what it was in 2016... the Brexiteers now want to railroad through the whole thing, against the will of the majority of the population of this country - many of which were not of voting age three years ago and now are (only 17 or so million wanted to get out of the EU and Scotland, Northern Ireland and in fact London all voted overwhelmingly to remain).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
The other thing is that, if May is able to do a deal with the Labour party, then her party is screwed, and she's pretty well finished from what I can see.
May has in fact been a Tory leader/prime minister under sufferance since at least the 2017 election result. The Tory party simply could not get safely rid of her... and still cannot. She survived the vote of no confidence purely on the basis that for the Tories and also the DUP it was a choice between her or ushering in a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn.

She has now approached the cross party approach far too late in the process. But I wonder if it's anything more than a token approach or an attempt at more posturing and blame shifting at this stage.

Last edited by cynwulf; 04-04-2019 at 06:11 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 06:16 AM   #19
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Glad I'm not living in the UK right now...
Well, it's interesting at any rate!

Last edited by hazel; 04-04-2019 at 06:19 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 06:26 AM   #20
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Well it obviously isn't working very well, given she's asking for yet another extension from the EU.
It looks like it is going perfectly to plan: run the clock out and force a hard brexit. What seems bizarre, looking in from the outside, is that they keep voting down more or less the same proposals over and over again and, weirder, the same proposals are brought up for votes again and again.

Back more directly to the topic...

It's hard to find fresh news on the topic there since the javascript-running NCSC site has google-bombed the search engines.

While many sites are up to best practices, many aren't. Few of the sites run M$ directly but the mindset is there in that the sites' software is not maintained and hard-to-maintain software is often deployed. Much of the infrastructure aside from the web is M$, especially the desktops. Those are all wrong decisions. Since even those that are up to speed can still be compromised by going after the loose M$ desktops that connect. Sure it's a two- or three-step process but feasible for those with the incentive. Whether brexit goes through or not, there will be a need to pinch pennies and that, if taken seriously, means a move from reactive security to proactive security. And that means a search-and-destroy for the last remnants of M$ products and the way of thinking they foster.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 06:50 AM   #21
hazel
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I believe I read about a year ago that Google won't let their employees use Windows on their desktops because it's a security risk. Once you have cracked any machine on a network, you can pose as a trusted client. That's why the Internet of Things is so dangerous; they hack your fridge, then hop from there to your router and poison your dns.

Last edited by hazel; 04-04-2019 at 06:53 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 07:08 AM   #22
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
May is working with/for the EU/global business interests to force the deal through - at any cost. May is already done for post Brexit anyway, she knows this.
From my understanding, your "Tory" party is a lot like the morons we have here in Oz at the federal level of government (the Liberal and National parties). Yep, I've been waiting for her to announce her (May) retirement.

Quote:
She really has the choice, others such as Cameron and before that Blair had - put party political interests first or that of the economy/business, history will (has) decide which... May has unsuccessfully tried to play both sides and the result is where we're at now.
Yep, a bunch of snakes you just can't trust.


Quote:
...
Another referendum would probably result in a resounding win for the remain vote. Now that people have seen this mess, have cooled off, have seen the state the country is already in, have mostly seen through the utter lies which were spun on the run up to the referendum, there are going to be a lot of changed minds.
I tend to agree from what I'm seeing. I would certainly hope so for your country if nothing else.

Quote:
The Brexiteers don't want another referendum, they believe that we cannot simply rerun referendums because of an undesired result. This is technically true, but equally, the Brexiteers don't want to rerun the referendum, because they know full well that the result will be very different to what it was in 2016... the Brexiteers now want to railroad through the whole thing, against the will of the majority of the population of this country - many of which were not of voting age three years ago and now are (only 17 or so million wanted to get out of the EU and Scotland, Northern Ireland and in fact London all voted overwhelmingly to remain).
It will be interesting what the EU would say if enough people in your parliament do agree to another referendum, but I'm not sure how likely that would be tho.

Yeah, I remember hearing that it was mainly people in the countryside (other than Scotland and Northern Ireland) that voted to leave. Wonder what their thinking now? I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of them might be thinking differently now.


Quote:
May has in fact been a Tory leader/prime minister under sufferance since at least the 2017 election result. The Tory party simply could not get safely rid of her... and still cannot. She survived the vote of no confidence purely on the basis that for the Tories and also the DUP it was a choice between her or ushering in a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn.
Like in the nanny-state I live in, you may well have a Labour government come next election, given the disaster that is brexit.

Quote:
She has now approached the cross party approach far too late in the process. But I wonder if it's anything more than a token approach or an attempt at more posturing and blame shifting at this stage.
It sounds like both to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Well, it's interesting at any rate!
If I had some popcorn, I'd be eating it now (no offence).
 
Old 04-04-2019, 08:56 AM   #23
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Yeah, I remember hearing that it was mainly people in the countryside (other than Scotland and Northern Ireland) that voted to leave. Wonder what their thinking now? I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of them might be thinking differently now.
There were/are a core in certain rural areas, but what swung it were the large numbers of working class people, some even traditional labour voters who were swayed by the nonsense being spread by the likes of UKIP + Leave.EU, other smaller groups and of course the official "Vote Leave" campaign group itself - all founded and orchestrated by wealthy individuals whose jobs and livelihoods would not be under threat and who's wealth would be safely insulated.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 09:11 AM   #24
jsbjsb001
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I'll never understand how even just a semi-intelligent person can honesty believe people like UKIP (our version of them being "One Nation"), as you say, the rubbish they pedal. It's the same nonsense with our version of them (One Nation), just Trump-like BS. I can understand why people are sick and tired of political parties that look after themselves rather than the common parson, but to vote for/support/believe even worse, I don't get it.

All I know is this world has gone to s*it. Honestly, it's just not the world I grew up in...
 
Old 04-04-2019, 09:26 AM   #25
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Actually the best explanation of the vote was the Evening Standard's one the day after (and the Standard is a strongly Remain paper). The article pointed out that Remain had run a relentlessly negative campaign. They had not provided one good reason for actually staying in the EU, only a string of threats about the terrible things that might happen if we left. In other words: "Always keep tight hold of Nurse for fear of meeting something worse."

This was not just a beef about negative campaigning; negative campaigning often works, which is why politicians do it. But it only works when most people are doing reasonably well out of the status quo. This was not the situation in 2016. London was doing exceedingly well, but there were huge swathes of the country that were (and still are) doing very badly. The supposed "recovery" had not touched them. It was places like Clacton-on-Sea that voted leave. You can't frighten people by threatening that the economy will tank, when their local economy has already tanked.

If there had been someone, anyone, to campaign for remaining in the EU in the way that Gordon Brown campaigned for Scotland remaining in the UK, the result might have been different.

Last edited by hazel; 04-04-2019 at 09:31 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 10:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I'll never understand how even just a semi-intelligent person can honesty believe people like UKIP (our version of them being "One Nation"), as you say, the rubbish they pedal. It's the same nonsense with our version of them (One Nation), just Trump-like BS. I can understand why people are sick and tired of political parties that look after themselves rather than the common parson, but to vote for/support/believe even worse, I don't get it.
UKIP went from something like 3% of the vote in the 2010 general election, to around 12% of the vote in the 2015 general election before the EU referendum. They slumped sharply back to something like 2001 or 2005 general election levels in the 2017 elections. There were numerous reasons for this, one being that traditional Tory or Labour voters may have swung back behind their parties, to attempt to oust May and the Tories, or out of fear of Jeremy Corbyn being elected.

It's worth noting that in it's history UKIP has only had one or two MPs sitting in the commons, both Tory defectors as I recall... both were gone by the 2017 election.

The big gains for Labour in 2017 did seem to point to large numbers of the disenfranchised, most likely white, working classes who had voted UKIP previously (and probably to leave as well), perhaps "cooling off" somewhat, once the pre-referendum rhetoric had died down and making an effort to unseat the Tories.

And north of border, once the Scottish Independence fervour had cooled somewhat, there were gains for the Tories there (without which it would have been a complete disaster for May) at the expense of the SNP.

So that's really what these "independence" parties amount to - they are a blip, with a stated agenda for independence, but often with no real policies beyond that, they rely on kneejerk voting from the disillusioned and forgotten.

Last edited by cynwulf; 04-04-2019 at 11:00 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 11:19 AM   #27
jsbjsb001
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Yeah well, sounds a bit like another party here, being the former "Palmer United Party", that came and went (the members of it fell away much like dominoes), but now the idiot behind it has started another party to contest the upcoming federal election here, being the "United Australia Party" - if you look at it's motto, you'll see something very familiar with Trump's.

And yet, more idiots that honestly think Clive is actually going to be something different to the morons we currently have. So it will be interesting to see how many people get sucked into the bulls*it this time around. History looks like it may repeat itself yet again...
 
  


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