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Old 11-10-2016, 07:18 AM   #346
sundialsvcs
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Get over it: She didn't win.

(Full disclosure: "Yes, I voted, and No, I didn't vote for either of them.")

It is also a misconception that "the popular vote went one way and the electoral vote went the other." The states are not of equal size or population, and it is the states who actually elect the President. Each state appoints its electors, who are pledged but not legally bound to vote the way they said they would. Furthermore, each state dictates how they choose their electors. (Two states do not use "winner take all.")

In this way, the election could be decided either by "the will of a very few populous states," such as California, Florida, or New Jersey, or, as in this case, by a majority of less-populous states, such as the American "rust belt."

The election-results maps (say, on http://www.politico.com), are an angry mass of red. The great majority of the states voted for Trump against Clinton.

Several pundits have compared this to Great Britain's recent "Brexit" vote, as a vote against "globalization" (as it is now being foisted upon people around the world) and for the concept of national self-rule. It was a pendulum that has been swinging disastrously the wrong way for over 30 years.

So, especially, the Americans voted for a person with no prior political or military experience whatsoever. We shall soon see how this person figures out how to do the job.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-10-2016 at 07:20 AM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 08:43 AM   #347
hazel
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Today I saw film of Clinton supporters in New York shouting "Reject, reject the president elect!" and "Not my president!". It reminds me very much of the days after Brexit when a lot of the great and good said, "The people have made a terrible mistake. We have to overturn this." Sorry, mates, but in a democracy the people have the last word -- even when they're wrong!

What I find funny in a grim sort of way is that when Trump insinuated that he might not accept a vote against him because, in his view, the whole system was hopelessly biased, all Clinton's supporters screamed with outrage. How dared he challenge the constitution like that! But now the shoe is on the other foot, they are happy to do just that. It shows what hypocrites they are.

Last edited by hazel; 11-10-2016 at 10:42 AM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 09:40 AM   #348
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All I can hear is Trump saying "The polls are wrong folks."
Which he did.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 10:46 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitual View Post
All I can hear is Trump saying "The polls are wrong folks."
Which he did.
They were wrong about brexit too of course.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 11:17 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Sorry, mates, but in a democracy the people have the last word -- even when they're wrong!
But that's just what they don't in the USA. A majority, admittedly small, voted for the Democrats. The result was a Republican President, Senate, and House.

The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe has issued their assessment:
> too many citizens unable vote
> too many not voting because of long queues before and after work
> 13% of polling stations visited had malfunctioning voting machines

It's interesting that 17 states banned OSCE observers. Why am I not surprised?
 
Old 11-10-2016, 11:25 AM   #351
sundialsvcs
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A-c-t-u-a-l-l-y ... It would only require, say, "$100 million dollars."

"You are an elector. The US Supreme Court says that you are entitled to vote any way that you want to." (The US Supreme Court has also said that when corporations who spend money to influence political elections are merely 'speaking'.)

Therefore, I need (only) ten volunteers. Donald Trump now has 279 assured electoral votes, and he needs 270. I will therefore pay $10 million dollars in shiny ... g-o-l-d ... c-o-i-n-s ... absolutely authentic and absolutely untraceable ... to any ten electors who are willing to be "unfaithful electors," just this once.

"Just do the 'Right Thing.™'" Even though the people have voted, the Constitution says that it's your decision, and that you'll break no laws at all if you don't, in fact, vote as you 'pledged.' Put "the right woman" in the White House, despite the vote, and all those shiny gold coins are yours ... all yours ... all ... yours ...

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-10-2016 at 11:27 AM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 11:35 AM   #352
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
A-c-t-u-a-l-l-y ... It would only require, say, "$100 million dollars."
Do the Clintons have $100 million? I thought Trump was supposed to be the multi-millionaire.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 11:46 AM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
But that's just what they don't in the USA. A majority, admittedly small, voted for the Democrats. The result was a Republican President, Senate, and House.

The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe has issued their assessment:
> too many citizens unable vote
> too many not voting because of long queues before and after work
> 13% of polling stations visited had malfunctioning voting machines

It's interesting that 17 states banned OSCE observers. Why am I not surprised?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
Actually, and to set the record straight, the U.S. Citizens elected H. Clinton. The Electoral College elected Trump. Yeah, our system is flawed that way. Sorry.
While these are all true, the Republican sweep of the downballots tells me that that this was legitimately the desire of the U.S. as a whole.

Last edited by dugan; 11-10-2016 at 12:50 PM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 12:55 PM   #354
hazel
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Anyway in America, presidents are elected the way the constitution says: i.e. by an electoral college and not by a nationwide referendum vote. If Americans don't like the results, they should campaign to change their constitution.

btw Abraham Lincoln and John Kennedy were also elected on a minority vote.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 12:55 PM   #355
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Understanding the raw emotional content of this thread regarding the results of the Nov. 8 election, two points should be made.

1) The electoral college does not negate the popular vote; it's the mechanism we use. Really, it was, from the first, deliberately instituted to be a safeguard for the states, and remains so until a constitutional amendment changes that. Any one of us in the US can start that process. Hell. That worked for prohibition. It also worked to repeal prohibition.

2) It may not be right to consider that citizens who were eligible to vote but didn't were all saying "A pox on both your houses." Obviously, many were saying that, but many were saying "I will passively accept the results as determined by legal means." The effect is they are both part of the winning side. So unless someone wants to be an ineffective irritant who will push people to exactly the opposite opinion by protesting the results in the streets, his best course of action is to DEAL!

Last edited by jbuckley2004; 11-10-2016 at 12:57 PM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 12:59 PM   #356
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjolnir View Post
"Trump Force One", Trump's Boeing 757 might be full of 'celebs' coming your way if the 'Lefty's' who pledged to leave with a Trump victory keep their word! Lol
That would not be to your country's advantage. To yours, for sure, but not to your country's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight

Last edited by dugan; 11-10-2016 at 01:37 PM.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 01:04 PM   #357
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe has issued their assessment:
> too many citizens unable [to] vote
> too many not voting because of long queues before and after work
> 13% of polling stations visited had malfunctioning voting machines
Well, from many thousands of sea-miles away from the actual action, we seem to have yet-another apology for why 'the wrong candidate' won.

I'd love to see the data that says why these people were "unable to(!) vote." I'd also love to see data that actually confirms that people ... long accustomed to waiting a very long time at Chick Fil'A for a chicken sandwich ... walked away from the polls in disgust. I'd also love to see data that shows that a voter, when faced with a voting machine that didn't work, did not simply walk over to another one.

Ahem.

To my way of thinking, "the election process worked more-or-less as it always has," but, this time. "the entire world, including Europe(!)," found itself "far too-much emotionally involved in it."

In other words: when proffered 'unlimited amounts of Kool-Aide™,' it seems that we all quite-willingly drank it . . .

"This is an election." This is (supposed to be ...) reality." This is not "reality tee-vee."

And, "next time," we need to somehow remember that.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 01:40 PM   #358
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Well said, hazel. This is The United States, a representative democracy, Trump won the popular vote in a majority of the states. We actually elect representatives to the Electoral College from each state. The idea is that this protects the less populated states from being "drowned out" by heavily populated states. There are other reasons as well. It has changed over the centuries. The electoral college representative are expected to, but not required to, vote for the candidate their state wants, although I believe some states have laws requiring their reps to do just that.

Hey, I just put up with Barak Frank Marshall Davis, Jr. Obama for 8 years. Never rioted, never called any one names (at least not in public :-)), never shot cops, etc. Now it's time for all these crying snowflakes to buck up and deal with life on life's terms.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 01:52 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuckley2004 View Post
....1) The electoral college does not negate the popular vote; it's the mechanism we use. Really, it was, from the first, deliberately instituted to be a safeguard for the states, and remains so until a constitutional amendment changes that. Any one of us in the US can start that process. Hell. That worked for prohibition. It also worked to repeal prohibition. ...
Exactly. The Founders never foresaw the formation of distinct political parties and that led to the chaotic administration of Adams - Jefferson. The 12th Amendment resulted, in an attempt to fix the short comings of the first iteration of the 'Electoral College.' During this period people looked "across the pond" and saw the stunning speed with which 'direct popular vote' descended from the beautifully eloquent 'The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen' of the French Revolution to anarchy and an estimated 40,000 heads rolling into a basket from Parisian guillotines.
Our system isn't perfect but NO system is and if the need is great enough, we have a process to fix it.
 
Old 11-10-2016, 02:05 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
That would not be to your country's advantage. To yours, for sure, but not to your country's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight
No, please take them. Call it our repayment for 3 unsuccessful attempts to invade what became your Country in the War of 1812. Heck, we'd probably also pay reparations!
 
  


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