Power grid as antenna possible ?

joboy · 12-27-2024, 10:41 PM

I've got a random wild thought after I found my lost phone with Google "find my device". As far as I understand, the service uses cellular, wifi and bluetooth to relay the location details of the lost device, more compatible devices in the circle more precise the location info. will be. What if we can use the power grid as a gigantic antenna for that ? just like the "home plug" thing for extending the network. I understand it would be extremely hard to dig out the tiny wireless signal buried deeply below the electrical noise, if the signal can be carried by the grid at all.

___ · 12-28-2024, 02:32 AM

There's a lot of the internet about this! e.g.:
https://about.att.com/innovationblog...ct_airgig.html

John VV · 12-28-2024, 08:52 AM

there is SO MUCH noise in the 60 hz system that it would be almost usless
that issue would need to be solved

jefro · 12-28-2024, 09:51 AM

Most US power distribution has gone to smart devices. The electric companies didn't want home users to access data over power lines to help protect the grid.

I rather doubt frequency and power of cellphone could affect the lines.

Elon Musks starling is now able to interact with modern cell phones outside of cell towers.

Many highways in rural areas are supported along path, but not very far off path.

michaelk · 12-28-2024, 02:00 PM

Quote:

What if we can use the power grid as a gigantic antenna for that ?

Not really. It the grid was one gigantic antenna you would not have any way of discerning exact location. Find my devices works in combination with Cell grids, GPS, and the location of wireless access points to pinpoint the location.

colorpurple21859 · 12-28-2024, 02:24 PM

Using the power grid to locate devices, possible, costly with very little return, unusable with a power outage.

wpeckham · 12-28-2024, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John VV

there is SO MUCH noise in the 60 hz system that it would be almost usless
that issue would need to be solved

Not JUST the noise. The power grid is LOADED with filters and induction devices that would make it unsuitable. If you know anything about the way the power grid is actually structured or how it all works, it is kinda a mess for POWER, and totally unsuitable for SIGNAL!

joboy · 12-29-2024, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelk

Not really. It the grid was one gigantic antenna you would not have any way of discerning exact location. Find my devices works in combination with Cell grids, GPS, and the location of wireless access points to pinpoint the location.

Sorry I did not say it clearly. What I meant was to use the power grid as antenna to relay back the location detail got from the GPS to the internet, not for locating the device. In case of a cell phone, the power grid is a cellular extender.

joboy · 12-29-2024, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colorpurple21859

Using the power grid to locate devices, possible, costly with very little return, unusable with a power outage.

Power outage may be a good thing, to eliminate the noise when the grid is loaded. My crazy idea was rooted from here.

https://m.zmscable.com/new/What-is-Leaky-Cable

Most importantly the grid is not for locating but relaying the cell signal.

colorpurple21859 · 12-29-2024, 08:17 AM

whatever is built in to relay the signal back would most likely be powered by the grid, henceforth no power no work

business_kid · 12-29-2024, 01:50 PM

Interesting idea but no.

The nearest cell towers provide gps, which travels by mobile signal, even if GPS Satellites are down. No gps is provided by a power cable running from A-B. All you would know is 'somewhere near that cable.'

Inductance used to be measured in feet, before someone called Henry organised the unit. So a power cable is a massive inductor. Now you tell me how to isolate one (of perhaps thousands) of millivolt, microvolt or nanovolt signals in the midst of the industrial noise that's been referred to? And how is the cable going to talk back? Without 2 parties listening, there's no communication. How can the cable say: "I didn't get that - please send it again."?

In fact, power cables usually don't go beyond a substation. Things are moved to higher Voltage & lower amps. We have 110KV & 220KV cables going long distances to prevent losses due to Ohm's law. Across any given wire, voltage lost is proportional to current.

joboy · 12-30-2024, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Interesting idea but no.

The nearest cell towers provide gps, which travels by mobile signal, even if GPS Satellites are down. No gps is provided by a power cable running from A-B. All you would know is 'somewhere near that cable.'

Inductance used to be measured in feet, before someone called Henry organised the unit. So a power cable is a massive inductor. Now you tell me how to isolate one (of perhaps thousands) of millivolt, microvolt or nanovolt signals in the midst of the industrial noise that's been referred to? And how is the cable going to talk back? Without 2 parties listening, there's no communication. How can the cable say: "I didn't get that - please send it again."?

In fact, power cables usually don't go beyond a substation. Things are moved to higher Voltage & lower amps. We have 110KV & 220KV cables going long distances to prevent losses due to Ohm's law. Across any given wire, voltage lost is proportional to current.

I need to repeat again even my theory is too crazy to work, the power grid is not for gathering location data, but to relay it got from the cell phone's GPS.

sundialsvcs · 12-30-2024, 07:53 AM

So, how do "smart" electrical meters actually work? My understanding was that they "phone home" through the power lines . . .

(And the power company can "phone them," too. For example, to disconnect your service.)

michaelk · 12-30-2024, 09:06 AM

It depends, could also be RF or cellular network.

If your mobile phone is connected to local wireless access point then the data is transmitted however it is connected to the internet.

jefro · 12-30-2024, 09:30 AM

One of my smart meters was converted to an LTE model.
Other one is very slow reporting via power lines.
The LTE let's them better bill me they say. I say bill went up.