LinuxQuestions.org
Latest LQ Deal: Latest LQ Deals
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


View Poll Results: Are we really the enemy?
Yes 5 29.41%
No 5 29.41%
There is no enemy! Peace! 7 41.18%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 12-24-2003, 09:32 AM   #1
fuzzyworm
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Stroud, UK
Distribution: Kubuntu, Debian
Posts: 149

Rep: Reputation: 15
The enemy - is it really us?


Have a look at this article:

I've seen the enemy, it's us

What do you all think?

Last edited by fuzzyworm; 12-24-2003 at 09:41 AM.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 09:38 AM   #2
lokee
Member
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Distribution: Gentoo
Posts: 381

Rep: Reputation: 30
There is no war... Why would there be an enemy?

We're all here because we want to; We do things because we like them...
We're not here for competition; because we want to sell...

So why should we make products? We're not here to offer: We're here for the pleasure of the work...

Just my 2 cents on this.

As for the the packaging part... Mostly wrong: His problem is Redhat specific ; as he pointed out, 'emerge' in gentoo works without a hitch.
What bugged me is that he seemed to propose a more Windows-like way of installing programs... Maybe he didn't detach himself of his windows roots(this may be confirmed by his part on Lindows)? I have, and I really prefer linux's way.

Last edited by lokee; 12-24-2003 at 09:57 AM.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 12:34 PM   #3
Dewar
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Washington State
Distribution: SuSE 8.0, SuSE 9.0, Slack 9.1
Posts: 90

Rep: Reputation: 15
I can't say that I'm qualified to comment on most of the article. In truth, I
install everything from source rather than bother with package managers.
There is one thing he says that I agree with though....

Code:
Finally, this installer will tell you where it put the damned executables. Some 
apps put the bits in /usr/local/. Others put them elsewhere. But there's little 
consistency on this point, and dammit, there needs to be a lot more. Windows
may be the devil, but at least you can easily figure out where an application 
installs itself.
I have found nothing more frustrating than trying to track down where SuSE
installs the programs that are selected in the YaST setup program. I think it
would be a big step if linux would incorp. a list of all the programs on the
computer, and where they are installed.... We'd call it a... registry! But in
Linux it would be a minimal list of locations, without the extra fluff (and
spyware) added in.

Just a thought or two from someone still in the no-man's land between win
and lin.

-Derek

*edit* Line breaks
 
Old 12-24-2003, 12:56 PM   #4
trickykid
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,149

Rep: Reputation: 266Reputation: 266Reputation: 266
Moved: Even though its Linux related, its still a General discussion with no technical questions, so I moved it to just General where this thread is more suitable. Regards.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 01:36 PM   #5
Whitehat
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Cold North
Distribution: SuSE 9.1
Posts: 1,289

Rep: Reputation: 46
That article addresses exactly why Linux is not mainstream yet.

It's the brutal truth.

Some folks here don't want it to ever become mainstream. Some folks here think there is no need for improvement.

I think that I get just as frustrated as that guy did (in the article) and I have been doing this for a while now.

Quite frankly I'm also getting tired of taking weeks to get my system running how I need it (after a fresh reload). I can get my box configed and tweaked all out in about 3 days with Windows.

Oh well....

SSDD.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 01:59 PM   #6
mikshaw
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Maine, USA
Distribution: Slackware/SuSE/DSL
Posts: 1,320

Rep: Reputation: 45
for me, with both Windows and Linux, the "configuring it just the way I want it" is a constantly evolving process. The difference is I actually enjoy the process in Linux.

As for dependencies...I'd rather be given an error and an option to install a library before proceeding. There have been times in Windows when an installer which includes all necessary files will overwrite files already installed, leaving other programs unusable since they require a different version of the library.
If it could somehow be required/enforced that an installer ask before installing/upgrading dependencies, then that would be ok.
As it is, I continue to prefer installing from source, regardless of dependecy issues.

I just don't understand why this article was written. IMO Linux doesn't need to compete or become mainstream or become anything...it is what it is, and I like it. The problem that I see, if there is one, is with people attempting to push Linux in a particular direction....trying to make it the ultimate desktop solution, or the ultimate server solution, or whatever. It started out as a hobby...if it advances into the mainstream giant that MSwin currently is, then goody for the penguin....otherwise it'll still be an amazing piece of work. Linux doesn't need to be anything it's not.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 06:17 PM   #7
burnpile
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Almost Heaven, West Virginia
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 327

Rep: Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally posted by mikshaw
for me, with both Windows and Linux, the "configuring it just the way I want it" is a constantly evolving process. The difference is I actually enjoy the process in Linux.

As for dependencies...I'd rather be given an error and an option to install a library before proceeding. There have been times in Windows when an installer which includes all necessary files will overwrite files already installed, leaving other programs unusable since they require a different version of the library.
If it could somehow be required/enforced that an installer ask before installing/upgrading dependencies, then that would be ok.
As it is, I continue to prefer installing from source, regardless of dependecy issues.
I'll have to agree here, I like the 'freedom' of installing my own dependencies, although I wish it was possible to install a local copy of a needed file in the source directory instead of having to use the global copy. I think the way the win32 platform looks for dependent files is superior in this one - and only this one- regard.
 
Old 12-24-2003, 07:35 PM   #8
codedv
Member
 
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Slough, UK
Distribution: Debian
Posts: 146

Rep: Reputation: 15
I prefer to install from source. I'm not experienced enough yet to start out with just the kernel and build it up from there but from my experience with RedHat and rpms it just complicates things no end.

RPM's make the installation process too Windows like and in the rare case you successfully install a package - its placed in a completly ilogical place in the file system and you have to do a search for it. At least with compiling from source you can specify the location.

Another big flaw I have found is that once you go the package way you are stuck. If for example I install a gcc package. Then I decide a year later to compile the latest version of the source. Attempting to install anything that requires gcc as a dependancy fails becuase it thinks its not there anymore.

All in all - when I use Windows I expect not to be in control. Windows does what it wants, when it wants. When I use Linux I expect to be in control and compiling programs from source is part of that. The package approach is just a mehod of making the install more challenging.

I don't think Linux will become mainstream for that very reason. Most of us linux users are control freaks and Linux is great at letting you do that.

P.S I don't get the Poll
 
Old 12-24-2003, 07:43 PM   #9
Whitehat
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: The Cold North
Distribution: SuSE 9.1
Posts: 1,289

Rep: Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally posted by codedv


P.S I don't get the Poll
Read the article in the first post. It should help you "get" the poll.
 
Old 12-25-2003, 08:03 PM   #10
320mb
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: pikes peak
Distribution: Slackware, LFS
Posts: 2,577

Rep: Reputation: 48
here is something interesting I found, it's from a Redhat user,
Not really sure what he's Complaining about but........

You all decide for yourselves.
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/rav...ts/linux.shtml
 
Old 12-26-2003, 01:48 AM   #11
johnleemk
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Malaysia
Distribution: Slackware 9.1
Posts: 145

Rep: Reputation: 15
I find myself agreeing about the packaging systems, at least with RPM. I haven't tried solutions other than urpmi, but RPM is really confusing if you're running a source-based system as well; some sites provide only source, and RPMs for other distros(a good example is Kopete). Sure, the user can Google for RPMs related to his/her distro. But source seems so easy! Just configure, make and make install. Then the user finds out he/she needs lib*devel packages. Hm...aha! I'll compile them too! And then these libraries require other libraries, and on, and on and on... Too much work is required right now with installing software on Linux. Ironically, if you want an easier packaging system, you have to get a harder distro, like Debian, Slackware or Gentoo. Speaking of that, I really need to compare those three head-to-head some day.
 
Old 12-26-2003, 07:09 AM   #12
qanopus
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jul 2002
Location: New York
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,358

Rep: Reputation: 45
There is a ring truth in the article. And I agree with you guy's as well. I compile from source as much as possible. Only when the compile times get really long (like 10 hours for openoffice.org) or then I have to install an non-opensource application I install the binary.
The reason why it's often much harder to install software on linux then it is on windows, has to do with the very philosophy of opensource. In the linux and bsd world programs are created so that other programs can utilize them. The underlying thought is that the wheel shoulden't get invented twice, which is of course very sensible. But it does create dependency problems.
In the windows world, where most programs are commercial, programs don't share resources with each other. At best they use system dll's, but because there is only one vendor of windows, that isn't a problem.
 
Old 12-26-2003, 07:21 AM   #13
jharris
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Distribution: Slackware, Fedora, RHES
Posts: 2,243

Rep: Reputation: 47
If I want things to 'just work' with Linux then I use tried and tested software, mainly from source but sometimes for packages and don't normally have any problems. If I want to play about with newer stuff (like Myth) then I'd expect to have the late nights trying to figure it out. To me thats part of the challenge, and forces you to understand how things are working.

We don't force anyone to use Linux. It is getting easier but until it reaches a level where you just understand it out of the box you've got two choices; start to learn yourself, or go elsewhere. Linux is fantastic (IMHO) but its not suited to everything so you'll always get articles like these, not something I see as a problem. We would simply end up with another Multics on our hands if we tried to make it do everything.

cheers all

Jamie...
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: Do you think the US is right? WindowsBurner General 198 01-06-2004 02:15 PM
Poll itsjvivek Linux - General 0 12-10-2002 10:18 PM
A Poll ! super_me General 1 06-08-2002 06:24 AM
POLL: Where do you... glock19 Linux - General 9 04-19-2002 02:05 PM
Poll eraser LQ Suggestions & Feedback 4 08-10-2000 01:01 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration