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Old 07-08-2022, 09:47 AM   #16
EdGr
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Incidentally, I recently tried switching Debian sid from systemd to sysvinit. https://wiki.debian.org/Init

The switch succeeded once, and Debian ran with only minor loss of functionality. On a later installation, attempting to switch failed. The developers don't prioritize keeping alternate init systems working.
Ed
 
Old 07-08-2022, 07:28 PM   #17
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
You're misunderstanding or belittling the amount of effort it takes for a distro to tear out systemd after it has started to spread.
So what do you propose is the way forward?

Now that the Microsoft brand is on systemd, will it change the code at all? It will continue to be developed out in the open, no?

Does the new branding suddenly change the nature of it?

All of that aside, what is it that makes this particular Open Source project unforkable? If it were forked, it certainly wouldn't be the first time in history that a project has been forked away from it's lead developer.

"Screw you guys, I'm going home." Lennart Poettering, probably... So let's play without him. He left us with the bat and ball... What's stopping us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
Check some of the packagers' mailing lists or some of the development-related lists for your favorite distros. It's not an easy or quick task and requires an ever growing, non-trivial amount of time and effort.
Yes, yes, but the point is that if they want to transition away there is nothing stopping them. It might take some time and effort, but is certainly not impossible.

OpenSSH doesn't have a hard dependency on systemd. It will easily compile and run on a system which doesn't have systemd.

Obviously, there would need to be some concessions made, but for the most part removing systemd is doable. Projects like GNOME which have hard dependencies will have to change or fall by the wayside, but that's their own stupid fault, isn't it? The KDE developers seem to have played the game a bit smarter in that regard.

I am extremely and eternally grateful for the approach taken by Patrick Volkerding with Slackware. If not for him, I'd have switched away from Linux a long time ago.

We certainly are in interesting times, eh?
 
Old 07-08-2022, 07:30 PM   #18
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdGr View Post
The developers don't prioritize keeping alternate init systems working.
Well hopefully this wakes them up.
 
Old 07-08-2022, 08:29 PM   #19
frankbell
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I tend to agree with rkelsen. And I think some persons are reading far too much into this.

Sure, Poettering developed Pulse Audio, but he hasn't been involved with it for some time and it soldiers on. That Poettering has taken a job with MS does not mean ipso facto that Microsoft is taking over SystemD. Caution and watchfulness is certainly in order, but panic is not.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 08:23 AM   #20
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
That Poettering has taken a job with MS...
We still have no proof of that?

I've seen nothing to suggest this is based on more than Michael Larabel talking to unidentified people on Twitter:
Quote:
After yesterday's article about Lennart no longer being at Red Hat, I began receiving tips that the systemd creator had some time back quietly joined Microsoft along with various public comments on Twitter and other mediums by individuals suggesting he joined the Redmond company... At first I thought they were jokes or just snarky remarks, but after a day of following up with folks, it actually turns out not to be a joke.
We don't yet know if those people are staff at Microsoft who have seen Lennart in their offices, or just random people performing a hoax.

 
Old 07-09-2022, 10:19 AM   #21
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
Sure, Poettering developed Pulse Audio, but he hasn't been involved with it for some time and it soldiers on.
It's being replaced with PipeWire now, isn't it?

PipeWire Is Still On Track For One Day Being A Drop-In Replacement To PulseAudio (2018)
 
Old 07-09-2022, 10:24 AM   #22
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
We still have no proof of that?
Still no proof. I've wasted some time trying to chase down a second source but although there are many dozens of articles on the topic, they all point back to Phoronix. Nothing in the comments either there or elsewhere I checked. Michael has been reliable in the past, but this is big enough news that a scoop like that needs verification.

Once it is verified or debunked more serious discussion and planning can / must occur.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 11:34 AM   #23
boughtonp
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There's a Twitter thread where Lennart reacts to someone posting a blog link about it, suggesting he's aware of the situation, but has neither confirmed nor denied anything.

https://nitter.net/pid_eins/status/1545341952106840064

(Apart from the final one they are auto-translated, with a handful of tweaks, so feedback/corrections from any fluent German speakers welcome.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Brauner (translated)
Embarrassment.
https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=9c3801ba
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fefe's blog (translated)
Well, that's how bad it is!

Mister "I'm so ingenious, I suck at all established standards and reinvent everything?" at Microsoft? Chef's Kiss!

Mister "udew is now an integral part of systemd and no longer goes without" goes to "Internet Explorer is now an integral part of Windows?" Perfect!

Mister Pulseaudio goes to the company with DirectX!

Next up: systemd-registry and systemd-activedirectory!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennart Poettering (translated)
Fefe is a nerd. The last time he insulted me on his blog, and I told him by mail that he can't read RFCs, he said that it was not a problem and forgivable the people would expect a fuss from him. How generous of the sod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennart Poettering (translated)
Afterwards he wanted to go for a beer with me, but what can I say, he could then and now tilt himself back to where the sun is not shining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arne Bockholdt (translated)
The best to avoid such bs in future would be to communicate openly and make an official statement to (former) political enemy to give out with the future tasks and the implications on the Linux community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arne Bockholdt (translated)
... and not to leave the field to speculation on Phoronix & Co....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennart Poettering
Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It.

Last edited by boughtonp; 07-09-2022 at 11:36 AM.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 04:10 PM   #24
rkelsen
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Where there's smoke there's fire.

The pig certainly seems to be enjoying the wrestle so far.
 
Old 07-09-2022, 05:03 PM   #25
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Where there's smoke there's fire.
Or a smoke machine, or dry ice, or liquid nitrogen, or ...


Anyhow, what I didn't see earlier was the previous message by Christian Brauner - as in the guy on the Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board who is also a senior software engineer at Microsoft - which says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://nitter.net/brau_ner/status/1545021335440687104
After a long long time just talking about how to make this happen [Lennart Poettering] and I are finally on the same team.
So that seems fairly conclusive.

That message was posted a day after the Phoronix article, but an earlier allusion was posted a day before, so I guess Christian was Michael Larabel's source, or at the least aware the article was going to be published.

 
Old 07-09-2022, 08:15 PM   #26
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
Or a smoke machine, or dry ice, or liquid nitrogen, or ...
Actually, none of those output smoke... It's probably best described as steam or vapour in all 3 of those examples.

Now, if you had said, "the electrics in an English-made car," you would have had no argument from me. They certainly are a good source of smoke.

Anyhow in this case, as in most cases, the smoke lead to fire, didn't it?

Last edited by rkelsen; 07-10-2022 at 01:39 AM.
 
Old 07-10-2022, 11:14 AM   #27
EdGr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Well hopefully this wakes them up.
I solved the problem by switching that machine to Slackware.

(Ducks before the distro wars break out).
Ed
 
Old 07-10-2022, 11:34 AM   #28
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Now, if you had said, "the electrics in an English-made car," you would have had no argument from me. They certainly are a good source of smoke.
Huh? I would be surprised if the electrics in any European vehicles were from anywhere other than East Asia.

I've no idea what relevance that might have to any part of this thread.


Quote:
Actually, none of those output smoke... It's probably best described as steam or vapour in all 3 of those examples.

Anyhow in this case, as in most cases, the smoke lead to fire, didn't it?
Stating that smoke is produced by fire is a tautology which contributes nothing.

Someone thinking they've seen smoke doesn't automatically mean it is smoke - an appropriate degree of verification should be performed before calling the fire brigade.

Similarly, the veracity of rumours should be established before spreading them or reacting excessively.

That should be standard practice for any source, but when a claim comes from Michael Larabel, independent verification is even more important. Why? Because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Larabel (Phoronix), Jan 2013
From a reliable source at the company, I have been told at least one of their very popular titles will see a release for Ubuntu Linux this calendar year. I was told this in person and was a statement backed up by additional proof.
There was no such release, not in that calendar year, nor since. (The "proof" he saw may have been Hearthstone, Blizzard's first Android release, in Dec 2014.)

Blizzard games do not support Linux-based Operating Systems, and there are no plans to change that.

If you see a white cloud emitting from Michael Larabel, it could easily be steam or vapour...


Last edited by boughtonp; 07-10-2022 at 11:44 AM.
 
Old 07-10-2022, 04:00 PM   #29
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdGr View Post
I solved the problem by switching that machine to Slackware.
Now that Microsoft owns Debian, I wonder if they'll rename it?
 
Old 07-10-2022, 04:57 PM   #30
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Now that Microsoft owns Debian, I wonder if they'll rename it?
Next version - Debian Clippy?
 
  


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