Philosophy of Linux and Linux users (return of the 2004 thread)
 

Well guys I did an interesting post about the 'elitism' of some Linux gurus way back in 2004. It sparked alot of thinking from LQ posters about how they felt as a end-user of Linux.

Have a quick look at the thread and it's poll results http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...d.php?t=196342

Now its nearly mid 2007. I would like to call the same vote again (hopefully with more than 17 votes).

Now that Ubuntu has popped its head into the mainstream Linux world and is praised for its 'out of the box' functionality, and automatic updates etc...I would very much like to see people's opinion these days.

The voting choices are incoherent ... If it's the same one's you gave last time, no wonder you only got 17 votes.

Newbies should definitely start with Ubuntu ... Debian with training wheels. When (if) they get educated enough to ask an intelligent question, they can move on to the real thing

Unfortunately I missed your previous post on this matter. I am however happy to contribute to this one.

I too in the past, have had my fair share of 'run ins, spats' if you will with Linux Gurus.

I can understand that they are unable to suffer fools gladly quite a few of my techie/guru friends don't have much of a social life beyond computers, and social interaction with anyone that is not considered to be on their level is somewhat of a no-no. That is still no excuse for rudeness.

Whilst first-time encounters with people of that nature can be somewhat of a shock and off-putting to some, we are now at the stage where, there are many, many more places for the newbie to seek advice. If and when they find such a place, the pain that was inflicted by the 'gurus whip' is soon forgotten.

For me it serves as a reminder to be courteous and polite to other newbies and not dismiss, flame or derride them for asking what on the face of it seems like a no brainer of a question.

No matter how 'elitist' these gurus want to be, changes are happening in Linux-land whether they like it or not.

The post above is a typical example of what you're on about. Perhaps rickh could enlighten us as to what an intelligent question consists of?

How do you know this? You got 17 votes and 20 posts in your thread.

I'm no expert, but to my mind, that hardly qualifies as "a lot of thinking".

This thread is pointless.

I don't understand your poll choices, but I will relate my experience with Linux. It goes like this: I've been using computers since the 1970s. I was first taught on a Tandy1000 by a sysadmin for Price-Pfister when I was a teen. Then, later on, the U.S. Government gave me my first introduction to Unix. They also introduced me to MS-DOS. At the time I was already using CP/M on a Kaypro and I thought MS-DOS was horrible. I was right. During the 1980s I used Commodore products; mainly for gaming. In the early 1990s I aquired an IBM PC compatible and re-discovered DOS. When Windows became popular, I couldn't see the point, but I bought that too. I went back to college and read about this thing called Linux on the Internet. I wanted it. I wanted it bad. I downloaded Slackware 1.0 (all nine disks if I recall) and went about screwing up my partitions with it. The dream of a workable home Unix system still remained though, and from time to time I would go back and try it all over again. Usually, I would fail miserably at something and go back to Windows, and hate it. Each time I would learn something that helped me the next time, until now, I don't need Windows anymore. I still dual-boot Windows to play games but that's all. I don't need Windows. I'll always love Linux and GNU and even BSD for that. I'm not beholden to a company for my computing experience. I love Freedom. Yes, I capitalized it on purpose. Linux, and other free software help me to remain Free. I do criticize certain things in the movement, and I have been criticized in return for that. That doesn't and won't stop me. Neither will patents, nor governments, nor companies, nor trolls. It's that simple.

I didn't find it interesting.

I don't understand the choices either. I don't criticize Linux. Why? Its better than Windoze or Mac, so I'll stick with Linux.

Your answers are hardly understandable. Why do you think I will criticize Linux? I know it is not perfect, but neither windoze is. Such polls are so useless. If I didn't like Linux I wouldn't use it.

For you, I think it's more important to learn about intelligent answers.

The questions are about the attitude of some GNU/Linux experts when dealing with newbies, not about how much you like Linux. Some people believe their expertise makes them superior in all ways and above such trivia as good manners and respect.

I do not even understand where this question is coming from and I certainly can't vote in a poll with zero valid options. It makes an implicit assumption about all sorts of things which I can't say I find valid. How could this spawn intelligent discussion and thought?

Ouch! :-)

Err.. respect for what?

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Now about that thread in 2004 or something .. how I'd answer, picking from the "possible answers list", and I'm far from a Linux expert.

A: 'Go back to Windows'. Seriously. It's just software. If Windows seems better to you what are you doing using Linux? 'Its not complicated, its straight forward. You are just incompetent.' Complicated is a subjective thing. Why would one be so arrogant as to consider their opinion universal? Why do you think that because *you* find it complicated, all those "linux experts" find it the same? They're battling your OPINION with their OPINION (a taste of your own medicine, if you will) And why would one call you incompetent? Everybody new in a field is incompetent in that field. It's not an insult, it's just the truth.

First of all .. "what people?" And why not go and ask them about it? Can't remember who they are? Well .. then tough. You trusted some people you knew nothing about, and now you're disappointed when you consider they lied to you. Hah. Also, 'Go back to Windows'. Again, if Linux crashes on you all the time, why use it? It's just a product, use whatever suits you best.

'I think we have a troll. Lets set him on fire etc.'. Understandable reply. Many people consider Linux to be very stable and fast. What's more likely to them: linux actually crashes a lot/is slow .. or someone is trolling?

Respect for other human beings. Look it up in a dictionary if you're not sure of the meaning.

I've always considered respect has to be earned. And so far, very few people have managed to earn my respect, as I'm sure I've earned the respect of even fewer.

I seldom post in the "general" forum, but I will make an exception in this case, since for the first time in a long time, the general public (the 90+% of us who own computers, but who use Windows) is not fully happy with Windows. Vista has been a disappointment and in my opinion we now have a brief space in time when people are actually looking for alternatives rather than just complaining. Still, these people are probably not looking for Linux per se, but rather looking for an alternative to Windows and Linux does not require you to purchase an Apple computer to change. :)

Anyway, although I have a long background in UNIX as a user, when I started installing and configuring Linux, I did find the task daunting. I further quickly learned that asking questions is risky in the Linux community. Although the answers are not generally as rude as "RTFM" (at least if you ask here in the newbies forum), they can be more terse than they should be and often include a reply that points the person to a tutorial regarding how to properly configure files in your X11 directory. Such replies miss the point completely. People coming from a Windows background are not typically looking for a tutorial on how to use the command line, nor how to compile a program from source code. They are looking for a way to make a few entries using a GUI to allow themselves to use their printer. In other words, their skill set allows them to do tasks similar to those they have been doing up to now using Windows. They can get used to new entries in a new GUI, but adding kernel modules should wait until next year. :)

There is also a general "disdain" for non-purist distributions. When we get the "what distribution is best for me" posts 10 times a day, it doesn't help for people to recommend Gentoo or Slackware to someone who says up front that they have never used Linux and want something easy to use. Recommending distributions like Mepis or Freespire won't kill you, and such distributions will be easier for a lot of the newbies to install and use. They can make the choice to get a "hotrod" distribution later, should they choose to do so. :twocents:

Well, you've been around here for less than a month yourself and made 25 posts at the time of this writing. Perhaps it is not yet time for you to lecture anyone regarding "earning respect."

Oh dear rickh, you're determined to make this personal. tut tut :tisk: Just admit it, you have no qualified example to offer. :D

Respect isn't a commodity or currency that has to be earned. Who do you think you are that people have to "earn" your respect?

P.S.
I really don't think I can afford to "earn" your respect, but I'm sure I'll manage without it.

I'm afraid that's quite confusing.

#1. I've been here for less than a month. Actually I've been here since 2004, but I won't get into that right now. And why does this account's age matter anyway?

#2. I've made 25 posts at the time of your reply. So what? I wasn't aware that the number of posts is inversely proportional to intelligence/skill-set/experience/etc. Think about someone who comes here today and by tomorrow he has helped 90% of the people who have asked any questions. Say in the process he accumulates 40 posts. In ONE DAY. What does that say about him? I'm sorry, but I'm just not getting your point.

#3. First of all, you draw a conclusion after a reasoning I have not yet comprehended. Second of all, I'm not lecturing anyone. I've said what I have always considered. I do not urge anyone to do the same. And to top it .. I don't understand the conclusion at all for what it's worth. Perhaps you meant that I have not yet earned anyone's respect. I never said I care do that.

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Rough words. "Who do you think you are". I am the one who is in total control of my thoughts and feelings. As such I will respect whoever I chose to. And not "everybody" because some random .. person .. dictates it.

People have to EARN my respect in order for me to respect them. If nobody wants to EARN it, FINE. I never said anyone SHOULD EARN it. My socks cost $500. Should anyone want them, they have to pay the price. Why would anyone want them? No idea. But I'm still charging $500 in case someone does.

You don't think you can afford to earn my respect. Why would you want my respect? You don't even know me, and I don't wish to know you. You're sure you'll manage without it. Oh noes.. that was a direct shot in my ego. Whatever shall I do. Some random person on the internet I could not care less about has said some bad things to me because I have expressed an honest opinion. Get over yourself.

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I live in a bad neighborhood but I go to a good school. I have seen "both worlds" and they are both full of idiots, double-faced people, back stabbers, etc. Yes, respect has to be EARNED. At least from my point of view.

Think about this: do you respect all idiots, rapists, etc. out there for the mere reason they are "human" and "alive"? I'd rather show more "humanity" to a dog. At least they don't hurt other people on purpose.

I meant giving a bit of respect to people who ask questions - even dumb ones - on these forums instead of the sneering, elitist response that some respond with. Of course I don't respect rapists or any other criminals. Or back-stabbers, two-faced people, and those who treat other people like dirt.

Well dudes that was a very interesting few pages. It's sparked the same huge variance in attitudes as it did back in 2004.


{BBI}Nexus{BBI}: Yes its a very good example. I wholeheartedly agree.

For the record ladies & gentlemen: the poll choices do make sense. They are geared towards end-users only. If your opinion is not one of them, then don't tick anything. Its more important to see the numbers for each, as appose to a ratio between them.

Rickh: The poll choices are the same as in 2004 for comparison.

Because nothing is ever improved without critism. This poll is about first impressions of Linux users, and how they feel about expressing it to gurus.

For you, it obviously hasn't.
If the options are not valid for you, then don't vote in the poll. Although there does need to be one for 'I agree end-users opinions do matter'.


Anyway this thread is still causing people to argue etc. And yeah after noobing for ages I've finally started to grow a guru moustache and get the questions from noobs. But you know what? It's all about how you explain it to people.

Usually you can answer most questions with a one liner about how the architecture for this particular thing is different than in Windows for example. And then point to the specifics. Most people are as not stupid as they appear with regards to computers.

(And before you ask - Working at an ISP helpdesk I am pretty well qualified as an answerer of noob questions.)

For the record I am currently doing the 'showing off Linux' thing at a predominantly Windows orientated ISP. It's doing pretty well. Especially with Ubuntu's hardware detection and the wow-things like Beryl etc. Windows compatibility is showing to be a big issue for most people.