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Old 06-02-2021, 07:57 PM   #61
linuxlivecd
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It was only a century ago that some buildings had running water, plumbing and electricity in the western world, in those cities.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 01:37 AM   #62
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I reckon the much written on Einstein, Relativity and in fact every scientific buzzword of the 21st century is only on topic if you make specific application of it to UFOs or UAPs. As so little is known about either title subject, you'll find that challenging.

I actually prefer UAP to UFO because so little is known about them. UFO presupposes an answer.

I have to wonder about the inefficiency of any UFO which fails to avail itself of the physical forces available - keeping resisting gravity using wings, steering using rudders, etc. But they use "Unknown physical forces" according to some here; why not use the known ones and keep their finite energy supply?

Personally I would be inclined to rule out any UAP from being a UFO if it hadn't propulsion, or steering.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 03:08 AM   #63
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<Sigh> OK Recap. Gravity != Force. Einstein > Buzzword. Interstellar Travel == Relativistic Velocity. UAP Woo ~= Gravity Propulsion. Steering = Inherent to actual intelligent design.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 04:06 AM   #64
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Ah enorbet, It's nice to see you use the word 'intelligent' followed by the word 'design.' . Not that I am attributing a meaning to them that you don't.

My point was evidently poorly expressed. These UAPs need not be material objects, much less UFOs. And their odd design and disregard for the laws of physics would tend to support my point, and negate the need for unknown technologies.

I disagree that gravity is not a force, btw. It is one of the four fundamental physical forces and a lot of things would go wrong if gravity were diminished.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 10:45 AM   #65
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OK business_kid. You stick with Newton and I'll go with Einstein even though both of them are somewhat negotiable.

It is a very fascinating subject exactly because it is nowhere near settled. Unless you are somehow troubled by Germanic female physicists you really should view

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qJptwikRc

I'm confidant you would find it interesting as well as enlightening.


--- OR ----

You could consider an expanded version of the "Vomit Comet". Assume for a moment you are in a sealed box that is in a state of Freefall, let's say from 30,000 feet altitude so you have plenty of time. Magnets will still attract or repel depending on polarity, electricity will still flow from Negative to Positive and heat will still flow from hotter to colder as each of them always must and can be measured doing so BUT you will feel weightless and won't be able to distinguish Up from Down even though you are hurtling toward the Earth. How is it that electricity, magnetism, and thermals (and since atoms don't fly apart inside your box those 2 fundamental forces still measure normally) act as they always must yet you have zero means to measure Gravity? Did the force of gravity disappear? Did some counter force negate it? or have you discovered that there is no force, only curvature in SpaceTime creating a Field of Influence. You should also note that I included "thermals" which is also not Force but Energy. Gravity is different from Force OR Energy. It is an effect, a field of influence Mass exerts on Spacetime, warping it. This, incidentally, is why super massive objects create Gravitational Lensing in Astronomy.

Just like you, in casual conversation I will say things like "The Sun rose was at 5:45 AM this morning", but in critical discussion it is paramount to keep one's terminology actually accurate and refer to the rotation of Earth. Similarly we should not confuse Force, Energy, and Acceleration.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-03-2021 at 11:19 AM.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 05:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
You could consider an expanded version of the "Vomit Comet". Assume for a moment you are in a sealed box that is in a state of Freefall, let's say from 30,000 feet altitude so you have plenty of time. Magnets will still attract or repel depending on polarity, electricity will still flow from Negative to Positive and heat will still flow from hotter to colder as each of them always must and can be measured doing so BUT you will feel weightless and won't be able to distinguish Up from Down even though you are hurtling toward the Earth. How is it that electricity, magnetism, and thermals (and since atoms don't fly apart inside your box those 2 fundamental forces still measure normally) act as they always must yet you have zero means to measure Gravity?
I don't think your conclusion is wrong exactly, but I'm not convinced that this thought experiment actually proves it. You should still be able to measure the (tiny!) gravitational attraction between objects inside the box, no? E.g., here is a description of an experiment that measures gravitational attraction between 2 mm spheres of gold.
 
Old 06-03-2021, 10:53 PM   #67
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Thanks ntubski. That's a decent article. However please do note that they use "force" in the title and then "field" in the first paragraph and then go on to explain why Gravity is the "red headed stepchild" in Physics for exactly that contradiction. So the article walks the middle ground, or as my Dad used to say "wants to have his cake and eat it, too". Also there's this

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.livescience.com/tiniest-gravity-measurement.html
This was a proof-of-concept experiment to create a sensor capable of measuring very small accelerations ...
and then he, too, adds in "that would allow us to detect even smaller gravitational forces" conflating force and field, or riding the fence, if you prefer, rather than risk taking a side. I have not the faintest of clues whether or not that experiment would work, since it is based on acceleration, inside a moving "room". Extremely fine measurements such as done at LIGO require unimaginable levels of isolation from the tiniest vibrations.

For reference check out this experiment you can try at home with most smartphones--- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GjIgJPn47E . I'm not sure his usage of "Up" is particularly relevant but it doesn't really matter since the simple Math and Science is spot on, though simplified for the layman. I'm confidant that gold ball experiment would measure a big fat Goose Egg in a freefall box or room, just like the accelerometer in the falling phone.
 
Old 06-04-2021, 03:49 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I am genuinely surprised people know so little about UFOs/UAPs and that despite investigating so much, they still have nothing on them.
Mutual exclusivity.
Once you "have something on them", they stop being "Unidentified" (with a capital U).
 
Old 06-04-2021, 04:01 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
OK business_kid. You stick with Newton and I'll go with Einstein even though both of them are somewhat negotiable.

It is a very fascinating subject exactly because it is nowhere near settled. Unless you are somehow troubled by Germanic female physicists you really should view

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qJptwikRc

I'm confidant you would find it interesting as well as enlightening.
Others are addressing the 'Vomit Comet' bit of your post. I always had a relaxed attitude to gravity. It's not gravity itself that does any damage, it just attracts. It's inclined to be the sudden stop when two objects meet that's the problematic bit - as I forcefully reminded when I fell last week.

I really think you're being too generous in your offer. After all, gravity is involved in the fusion reaction in all stars, so if gravity was a lesser force, smaller stars like our sun would simply lose fusion temperature, and stop; they'd "go out." That smacks of Newton's laws. So I get to sound off on the whole solar system, and nearby stars while you are confining yourself to the deep recesses of outer space?
 
Old 06-04-2021, 06:43 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I have not the faintest of clues whether or not that experiment would work, since it is based on acceleration, inside a moving "room".
[...]
I'm confidant that gold ball experiment would measure a big fat Goose Egg in a freefall box or room, just like the accelerometer in the falling phone.
Huh? Do you "not have the faintest clue" or are you "confidant"? Those seem like opposites.

Anyway, thanks for the video, there was a mention of the Cavendish experiment (it's similar to the gold ball experiment, but with larger objects) in the comments, which is actually what I was looking for earlier but couldn't recall the name.
 
Old 06-04-2021, 09:04 AM   #71
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Good catch ntubski. It was a hurried post and a really bad choice of words just intended to be brief. What I meant to convey was that there were not enough details in the gold ball experiment to fully grasp how one would recreate that experiment or the exact principles it measures and how it measures them, which leaves me uncomfortably guessing.

My confidence, OTOH, is in the principle we experience every day in perceiving we are in one spot with no perception that we are moving in a very complex pattern at unimaginable velocities. That, my friend, is a function of relativity. I truly don't see how, replacing being on the moving Earth with being inside a moving box BUT with no means of detecting anything outside the box, one can measure anything of what's outside the box. To put a finer point on it, one could measure external magnetic fields (and possibly electrical energy) from within the box and likely, given a large enough and well-equipped "box" and enough time, would be able to measure the Weak and Strong nuclear forces but I have no clue how one could measure gravity from within that box. I only doubt that the gold ball experiment can achieve that since it depends on (relative) acceleration.

Bottom Line - Newton said Gravity is a force but it is obvious in modern times anyway to show as in the smartphone video that while it can behave like a force, it is not one as Einstein demonstrated. That we can devise experiments where one thing can appear and be measured by us as two things (like the famous Double Slit Experiment) merely is a part of the larger conundrum we experience lacking a Unified Field Theory. We all know E=MC^2 but few of us regularly behave as if matter is in fact just energy. NOTHING is solid. We can't touch things... we only feel and interact with the repulsion of fields.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-04-2021 at 09:11 AM.
 
Old 06-04-2021, 05:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
To put a finer point on it, one could measure external magnetic fields (and possibly electrical energy) from within the box and likely, given a large enough and well-equipped "box" and enough time, would be able to measure the Weak and Strong nuclear forces but I have no clue how one could measure gravity from within that box. I only doubt that the gold ball experiment can achieve that since it depends on (relative) acceleration.
The Cavendish experiment doesn't measure gravity outside the box, only inside. I don't see how you would measure Weak and Strong nuclear forces outside the box either though. Maybe if it's a sort of hypothetical 0-width box that isn't made out of atoms (Star Trek style force field?). Although at that point you might be able to perform the Cavendish experiment across the box too, hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Assume for a moment you are in a sealed box that is in a state of Freefall, let's say from 30,000 feet altitude so you have plenty of time. Magnets will still attract or repel depending on polarity, electricity will still flow from Negative to Positive and heat will still flow from hotter to colder as each of them always must
Looking back at this, I think the unclear part is that you're apparently talking about a magnet (etc) outside the box attracting/repelling a magnet inside the box?

At any rate, the Equivalence principle is pretty well supported, but arguing over whether gravity is "really" a force isn't terribly important. Similar case with centripetal vs centrifugal "force" https://xkcd.com/123/
 
Old 06-04-2021, 06:33 PM   #73
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So obviously the actual report won't be published until towards the end of the month, and even then, it won't be complete findings. The speculation is china or Russia, perhaps using hypersonic technology.

Reports go back over twenty years, and more than hundred sightings are unexplained within this time frame.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/04/p...ess/index.html

Last edited by linuxlivecd; 06-04-2021 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Added link from cnn
 
Old 06-04-2021, 06:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
The Cavendish experiment doesn't measure gravity outside the box, only inside. I don't see how you would measure Weak and Strong nuclear forces outside the box either though. Maybe if it's a sort of hypothetical 0-width box that isn't made out of atoms (Star Trek style force field?). Although at that point you might be able to perform the Cavendish experiment across the box too, hmm...
Interesting but actually I was just expanding the concept of a closed falling box to possibly include a house-sized box with full lab gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Looking back at this, I think the unclear part is that you're apparently talking about a magnet (etc) outside the box attracting/repelling a magnet inside the box?
No I didn't consider an external magnet as that unnecessarily complicates matters when the point was simply one doesn't perceive and cannot measure gravity in a closed freefall system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
At any rate, the Equivalence principle is pretty well supported, but arguing over whether gravity is "really" a force isn't terribly important. Similar case with centripetal vs centrifugal "force" https://xkcd.com/123/
True we did delve too deeply down the rabbit hole when the point is simply "We don't fully comprehend Gravity, not by a long shot" and this should be sufficient motivation to study any phenomena that seems to defy what little we do know, or think we know." Thanks for the tug on the reins as I was considering bringing up The Great Attractor It's rather far afield from possible "gravity propulsion" but I find it hugely cool to grasp BOTH how much we know and how much we don't know. This just boggles my brain far more that UAPs unless one of them wants to offer me a ride to view the Vela Super Cluster.
 
Old 06-04-2021, 08:46 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxlivecd View Post
So obviously the actual report won't be published until towards the end of the month, and even then, it won't be complete findings. The speculation is china or Russia, perhaps using hypersonic technology.
Is that the same technology of the supposed sonic weapon that was giving embassy staff headaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Interesting but actually I was just expanding the concept of a closed falling box to possibly include a house-sized box with full lab gear.
No I didn't consider an external magnet as that unnecessarily complicates matters when the point was simply one doesn't perceive and cannot measure gravity in a closed freefall system.
Oh, then I did understand correctly the first time. I think your lab gear happens to be missing a few pieces. The gravitational attractor causing the freefall that you can't measure is outside the box (also, it must be large and far away enough so that you can't detect tidal forces due to the gradient). With the Cavendish experiment setup you should be able to measure the gravitational attraction of objects inside the box to each other, just like you can measure the magnetic attraction of objects inside the box to each other.
 
  


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