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Old 05-31-2021, 07:17 AM   #46
igadoter
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Sure - I have the same visions when I drink too much. But it costs less money - than to support pentagon.
 
Old 05-31-2021, 07:22 AM   #47
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Red herrings and tangents, eh? Have you read General and Special Relativity or any works, say like by Lee Smolin on Quantum Gravity? Maybe it was I that wasn't clear but the point is actually quite simple. How can we determine if something is claiming to defy a "law" if it's clear that subject is not well understood at all?

That brings up the issue of the hubris of Classical Science tossing around the term "Law" as incontrovertible rather than conditional which had such hubris because it was so entirely earthbound not to mention arrogant in that provincial view. Here in the US back then the Patent Office considered closing down because "surely everything that could be invented was 99% already invented during the 19th Century".

The question of the true nature of Gravity is a major one because it still is not confirmed whether or not Dark Matter exists or the observed phenomena is evidence that Gravity is quite different from what we know of it at this time. One of the reasons I think it is so important to discover what phenomena loosely called UFO, UAP, or whatever name you prefer to describe events or things that appear to bend or break what we think of as Laws, is to do what Science does best, falsify.

In simple terms, IF a phenomena that appears to break what we consider to be physical law, then we need to know about that. Either IT (the phenomena or our ability to measure it) is wrong or our understanding is. This is how breakthroughs occur. I suspect you are thinking like an engineer rather than a theorist. Engineers mostly deal with the practical present while theorists deal with the possible futures.

Last edited by enorbet; 05-31-2021 at 07:27 AM.
 
Old 05-31-2021, 09:08 AM   #48
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And the relevance of your post to the topic "pentagon videos UAP's and UFO's " is?

Personally, I think the guy who decides gravity is not a force or a law will owe an explanation to a lot of dead people as to what they actually died from Like the guy who decides UFOs are real will have a bit of explaining to do if UFOs don't obey the laws of physics.

On a nearly similar topic, the book of Mormon opens with a statement of 3 witnesses (to the golden plates), then 8 witnesses. One of the three Witnesses always asserted he had visited the moon! I wonder if UFOs were involved there?
 
Old 05-31-2021, 11:28 AM   #49
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In the early 70S, on a Saturday night in a country church yard west of Raleigh, NC, I was in my teens, my aunt, my two younger brothers and I saw a circular white glowing object circling above the tree tops. I was the first one to see it, I heard it before I saw it, for I wasn't looking up at the sky when I first heard the humming sound it was making as it came across the tree tops.

When I was in the Marine Corps I mentioned it to someone that was at one time was involved in top military secrets and he said I would be surprised by the things the government was working on but didn't say anymore.

As time went on I started to think maybe I had imagined the incident, until a couple of years ago I mentioned it to my brother and he also remembered the incident.

Was all four of us hallucinating, I doubt it. My aunt didn't watch tv, the only tv in her house was a black and white that only picked up one channel, she mostly listened to gospel music on the radio. We had went with my aunt to the church that night so she could get things ready for Sunday morning service.

Was It aliens or some sort of government science project? I can't answer that one. I just tell what I saw that night.
 
Old 05-31-2021, 05:03 PM   #50
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
How can we determine if something is claiming to defy a "law" if it's clear that subject is not well understood at all?

[...]
In simple terms, IF a phenomena that appears to break what we consider to be physical law, then we need to know about that. [...]or our understanding is [wrong].
I would describe this as a phenomena defying/violating the physical law.

I guess the difference here is that you're conceiving the physical law to be a thing separate from our mental models? That is, the physical law would exist (in some Platonic sense) even without humans thinking it up?
 
Old 05-31-2021, 06:50 PM   #51
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And the relevance of your post to the topic "pentagon videos UAP's and UFO's " is?
Perhaps the validity as unknown but interesting phenomena that could conceivably be a prima facia threat? AND who have been reported to defy what we currently know as physical law?

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Personally, I think the guy who decides gravity is not a force or a law will owe an explanation to a lot of dead people as to what they actually died from Like the guy who decides UFOs are real will have a bit of explaining to do if UFOs don't obey the laws of physics.
It was Albert Einstein who determined gravity is not a force but rather an inherebt characteristic of SpaceTime, indistinguishable from acceleration. Are you stuck in pre 1930s Physics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
On a nearly similar topic, the book of Mormon opens with a statement of 3 witnesses (to the golden plates), then 8 witnesses. One of the three Witnesses always asserted he had visited the moon! I wonder if UFOs were involved there?
Besides the apparent fact that Smith's own daughter said it was all a hoax, perpetrated "for the good of all" nobody got a photo, a radar or infrared image of those plates. In fact nobody but those few even claim to have ever seen them. I've worked closely with a few Mormon families and I liked them a lot but the doctrine is pretty whacko. I mean "Magic Underwear"?? Maybe they're on to something with the idea that we are all "Gods in chrysalis" just waiting to create our own Universes, but I guess we won't know until we die. I suppose in that case it would still fall under Plato's "Right Opinion" rather than Science.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 12:24 AM   #52
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
  1. Do these things obey the laws of physics? Like a heat shield for atmospheric entry?
  2. Do they defy gravity, or the laws of acceleration/braking?
  3. Have you ever seen an alien?
Really, watch the video Grobe linked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grobe View Post
If people around was starting asking the correct questions, I think it would unfold something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCH7BWGpl5s
It is very enlightening, once you get past the Sci-Fi-B-movie silliness.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 05:23 AM   #53
business_kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid
Do these things obey the laws of physics? Like a heat shield for atmospheric entry?
Do they defy gravity, or the laws of acceleration/braking?
Have you ever seen an alien?
So, according to that video, the answers are
  • No, they don't obey the laws of physics.
  • Yes, they defy gravity and accel/braking.
  • No, apparently the aliens don't get out of their craft.

It's funny how things are interpreted. In rural parts here during previous centuries, one could see ghosts, fairies (spirits, not homosexuals) one could hear the banshee (a local thing linked to the death of a close relative), one could see any dead relative, any fable could be fulfilled, and that was OK. But if you saw a spaceship, you were gone mad altogether, and often were locked up. They had places for locking up lunatics then. Now the 'lunatics' are running the country and prominent in the entertainment industry. No saints/ghosts/goblins are seen now because the country is atheist in large part.

I'm not denying things were seen, or photographed, and would not disagree with the terms UFO or UAP. I'm just surprised folks take them so seriously. This leads me to one other question:
  • Seeing as these don't obey the laws of physics binding on all matter, are they made of matter? Why do you so answer?

EDIT: There was a direct observable correlation between alcohol consumption and sightings of saints, etc.

Last edited by business_kid; 06-01-2021 at 05:50 AM.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 05:49 AM   #54
enorbet
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One serious problem with assuming "laws of Physics binding all matter" is that baryonic matter (in this case I'm using the term Astronomically to also include electrons and neutrinos) makes up only 5% of our Universe. 95% is called Dark Energy and Dark Matter, named "Dark" because we haven't the faintest clue yet what they are or are made of. We can only view and measure their effects like cavemen related to the wind, having no understanding of atoms and molecules.

This is not to say that the Laws of Physics are broken, just limited in locality. This is akin to the fact that Einstein's Relativity didn't disprove let alone dismiss Newton's Laws. It's just that Newton only works in certain environments and scales. There Newton is still spot on but where SpaceTime is concerned, the most mundane example being possibly GPS, we need Relativity because Newton fails there.

Granted, such things are common misconceptions, since Classical Physics ie: the era up to Newton, is largely intuitive because we live in it. Relativity and especially Quantum Mechanics are progressively less, even anti intuitive, because we have little or no frame of reference. That view requires research and training.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 09:32 AM   #55
business_kid
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Hmmm. I had the impression the laws were related to size. So, starting from the smallest,
  1. Quantum
  2. Newton
  3. Relativity.

Now I am not of the opinion that UFO's of a fixed size can choose which set of laws to live under. I am beginning to think you default to a position of 100% against my view (which is fine by me). Are you willing these UFOs & UAPs into existence as busily as you're willing the first recorded extra-terrestial beings out of existence?

Last edited by business_kid; 06-01-2021 at 09:33 AM.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 11:23 AM   #56
enorbet
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While it is true that so far we see quantum effects only in the realm of the very small, that may well be because we have yet to understand Gravity well since we don't yet have a working Quantum Gravity Theory nor understand the 95% of the Universe in Dark Energy and Dark Matter. However even if Quantum effects are limited to the very small Relativity sees Space and Time as one thing since Time is relative to the observer, too, and Mass distorts Space.

This is why Relativity must be considered to triangulate moving satellites at different positions and speeds to avoid errors in location right here on Earth. Time has been very precisely measured and compared between "stationary" (still moving at many thousands of miles per hour relative to the center of our galaxy but stationary relative to any one point on the surface of Earth) and jet planes obviously within our atmosphere but moving relative to "fixed" points on the Earth.

Newton is still used to calculate motion at astronomical distances from Earth and orbit calculations of other celestial bodies so it isn't confined by size and not entirely "earthbound".

You may have seen video of people on The Vomit Comet planes that create weightlessness by traveling in an arc that goes freefall for a few minutes, effectively cancelling the effects of Gravity. It's not just that acceleration mimics Gravity. From any perspective or measuring device they are indistinguishable. There has never been a meter that can identify any force associated with Gravity. If the Earth generated a field of Gravity it would still attract those in the plane and we would only feel the field of the Earth and not so-called "G Forces" when we accelerate. We still don't understand why Gravity is so weak. Think about it... a tiny refrigerator magnet can "resist" the entire mass distortion of the whole of planet Earth.

Electricity and Magnetism are measurable forces. So far, Gravity can not even be detected as a force like electricity or magnetism. We can measure the flow of electrons (even see sparks and arcs) and see the lines of magnetic force but no analog exists for gravity. We can calculate Gravity's effects based on Mass to an extremely fine degree (even via Newton) but so far no graviton particle exists accepting in theoretical mathematics. speculation. It's like ancients measuring wind by a weighted waving flag while having no comprehension of what moves the flag. We are , as of yet, that primitive in the area of Gravity. Hopefully LIGO and the burgeoning field of Gravity Wave Astronomy will shed substantial new "light" on the subject.

Also, and while it is at least possible that UFO/UAP research will conclude nothing, it is also quite likely that we will learn something deep about Physics in general and Gravity in particular.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-01-2021 at 11:25 AM.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 02:45 PM   #57
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Now they start having doubt about Relativity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtdLfdnpzs
 
Old 06-01-2021, 11:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
So, according to that video, the answers are
  • No, they don't obey the laws of physics.
  • Yes, they defy gravity and accel/braking.
  • No, apparently the aliens don't get out of their craft.
Somehow I can never tell when you're being sarcastic/ironic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I'm not denying things were seen, or photographed, and would not disagree with the terms UFO or UAP. I'm just surprised folks take them so seriously.
...ah, Ok. I guess you were this time.
 
Old 06-02-2021, 06:37 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho
Somehow I can never tell when you're being sarcastic/ironic..
I try to warn folks when I think I'm being sarcastic with these

But actually, that's normal. I admit to being an eccentric. It's a personality type, that doesn't think the same as ordinary folks - like an eccentric bicycle wheel would be an odd experience. We do get unusual angles on things and more ideas. Eccentrics are basically harmless, and happier than average.

I am genuinely surprised people know so little about UFOs/UAPs and that despite investigating so much, they still have nothing on them. Those infra-red scanning techniques reveal the temperature of the UFO/UAP. You have no doubt seen infra-red thermometers. But we never get told what temperature it's revealing. If there's no heat, there's no propulsion, no energy being expended, so we can ignore whatever it is. But Americans take everything so seriously … especially the military. Nobody asks "Does it matter?"

As for the attribution of unknown powers over known forces, that's what was done in the 'Intelligent Design' argument, and Scientist wouldn't have any of it. So I note the large inconsistency with the UFO/UAP investigations, where possible powers are being attributed fairly freely, and imho, unscientifically.

So I'm taking it all with a fairly large pinch of salt. Maybe the military just wants an excuse to play with it's toys
 
Old 06-02-2021, 04:16 PM   #60
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc78 View Post
Now they start having doubt about Relativity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtdLfdnpzs
Actually there's really noting "now" about doubts in Science at all, it's de rigeur. Initially Reltivity met with not only doubt but outright scorn, and while it has diminished rather a lot, it never really stopped. The biggest difference now is that Dark Matter is a very serious and humbling conundrum and it's the first serious issue in over 100 years. It causes problems for Relativity, Gravity, and Particle Physics and ultimately that's a good thing. It shows Science is still working as it should - falsifying and evolving.

It's important to remember two things ...

1) Special Relativity was published in 1905 and General Relativity in 1915. It would be almost a half Century before most people, including Albert, was aware that...

-- A) The Universe consists of many more galaxies than The Milky Way and is not Steady State, as Einstein believed when he published those theories.

-- B) It is naive to imagine that Einstein's Theories are set in stone forever, and worse to think "doubts" will toss them in some trash can. Just as Newton's "Laws" will still be studied and used 1000++ years from now (assuming Humanity still is around) since Einstein didn't utterly replace Newton... it's more like an addon and reinterpretation more consistent with observation.

2) It's actually rather amazing, considering the absolutely staggering gains in technology since 1905-1915, that in just the past couple years Einstein is still garnering new verification, often for the very first time. After all extremely few people even had electric lights in 1905. Towns in 1905 still had hitching posts and New York City still suffered through more than a million pounds of horse manure each day! It would be almost 20 years before Georges LeMaitre published his "Cosmic Egg" Theory, later called "Big Bang" and Einstein was a staunch denier of that for years until he met and conversed with Georges, seeing LeMaitre's full work for himself in it's entirety and discussing objections, all resolved then to his satisfaction.

I find this stuff fascinating and important and anyone who would like an in-depth look at modern problems for Relativity and especially Gravity (and it is On Topic for this thread) see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qJptwikRc

Last edited by enorbet; 06-02-2021 at 04:21 PM.
 
  


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