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Old 04-14-2018, 09:38 AM   #76
PatrickMay16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
I suggest you read this: https://www.ucg.org/vertical-thought...hout-the-bible

There are many non religious people who don't believe in evolution.
Yes, there are many ignorant people, some of them willfully so.

Quote:
For those of you who are convinced I don't know what I'm talking about: I live/was raised on a farm. I'm well aware of the fact that animals can "adapt" and "improve" through selective breeding, since I do it all the time. However the part where everything "happened/evolved" from one speck of life doesn't make sense to me. Ever keep/study bees? You'll know what I mean.
Argument from incredulity. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you personally. I don't understand the intimate details of electricity and physics related to the behaviour of electrons that enable my computer to work, but it works just the same.

I didn't look at the article you linked very closely because I have better things to do, and because I'm already familiar with a lot of the 'arguments' that these people use - I spent (or more accurately, lost/wasted) a good part of my life as a fundamentalist-type christian.

There's no difference between 'micro' and 'macro evolution'. To use an analogy, the 'micro vs macro evolution' argument is like arguing that it's impossible that a baby could transform into a grown adult. It is very possible and does happen, through a process of very many small changes over a long period of time.

Please do seriously examine some information from actual scientists, that talkorigins site I linked to earlier is a good place to start.

I also want to be clear that I'm not arguing against religion itself, I respect every person's right to their faiths - but you can have a religious faith without also rejecting good science. There are plenty of christians who accept the reality of evolution.

Quote:
Let's put that into perspective: I've got some Linux software for you, it might run on Linux, it's guaranteed to possibly improve your business, We strive to ensure that it might not steal and sell your personal data....etc.etc.

You'd say forget it. right?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this analogy. Could you write it in plain language?

PM

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Old 04-14-2018, 12:03 PM   #77
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post

There's no difference between 'micro' and 'macro evolution'. To use an analogy, the 'micro vs macro evolution' argument is like arguing that it's impossible that a baby could transform into a grown adult. It is very possible and does happen, through a process of very many small changes over a long period of time.

Please do seriously examine some information from actual scientists, that talkorigins site I linked to earlier is a good place to start.
Hmm, Ever see a human baby that NEVER had parents? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Unlike you, I actually read a LOT of material from that link you posted. Scientists DO NOT know where life comes from. All froms of life realy on previous froms of life. Hence the silly, dreaded creationism makes the most logical sense, even to most Scientists

Quote:
I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this analogy. Could you write it in plain language?
If you wanted the service of a software company, would you buy software with the garentee I discribed? For example its proprietary, so you have to decide if you want to trust your data with that company(No source-code). If you did find out they are stealing your data and selling it, you can't really come back on them because they will tell you they never really said they WILL NOT sell your data.

Most of the Proof any theory has is could have, might have, etc. As enorbet mentioned earlier,
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
If you were on trial for a capital crime would you want hearsay evidence allowed? Nobody does, which is why it is disallowed.
The Big-Bang Theory is no different.
 
Old 04-14-2018, 12:45 PM   #78
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Hmm, Ever see a human baby that NEVER had parents? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Unlike you, I actually read a LOT of material from that link you posted. Scientists DO NOT know where life comes from. All froms of life realy on previous froms of life.
Now you're arguing against abiogenesis rather than 'macro evolution'. And there are good hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
Hence the silly, dreaded creationism makes the most logical sense, even to most Scientists
This is complete rubbish. It's not true unless you cherry pick scientists who agree with you, which constitute a small minority.

Quote:
If you wanted the service of a software company, would you buy software with the garentee I discribed? For example its proprietary, so you have to decide if you want to trust your data with that company(No source-code). If you did find out they are stealing your data and selling it, you can't really come back on them because they will tell you they never really said they WILL NOT sell your data.

Most of the Proof any theory has is could have, might have, etc. As enorbet mentioned earlier, The Big-Bang Theory is no different.
OK, so it's pretty much exactly what ntubski guessed you meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Alright, since you won't explain the analogy, I'll have to make some assumptions. It sounds like you're saying you prefer when people speak with 100% confidence, even if that means they have to lie to you. Is that right?
In response to your point, Mill J - Yes, I would usually trust the scientific answers to questions based on hundreds of years of research that the scientists fully admit might be inaccurate, rather than superstition-based answers which are presented as absolute truth that you must not question.

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Last edited by PatrickMay16; 04-14-2018 at 12:48 PM.
 
Old 04-14-2018, 02:07 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post

In response to your point, Mill J - Yes, I would usually trust the scientific answers to questions based on hundreds of years of research that the scientists fully admit might be inaccurate, rather than superstition-based answers which are presented as absolute truth that you must not question
I find it interesting that it might be inaccurate but anybody that dares to question it is instantly branded as superstitious, ignorant, etc.

Might be inaccurate is also what disqualified the molten steel, etc theory earlier in the thread.

I knew full well before I even posted my first post in this thread, that nobody on either side will convince anybody on the other side of any theories. So why did I post? likely for the same reason you did.
 
Old 04-14-2018, 03:52 PM   #80
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I find it interesting that it might be inaccurate but anybody that dares to question it is instantly branded as superstitious, ignorant, etc.
Well, would you prefer to be branded as an evil reprobate follower of Satan bound for eternal hellfire? I'm not trying to be snarky or rude with this question.

The thing is, evolution might be inaccurate, in the same way that the knowledge of the earth being round and not flat might be inaccurate. We know pretty well that it's accurate. Evolution is basically the cornerstone of modern biology. In the same way that you'd be considered ignorant for believing that the earth is flat, you'll also be considered ignorant for rejecting evolution. That's not to say that you're not intelligent - even very brilliant intelligent people can hold irrational beliefs.

But if (hypothetical 'if' - it's not going to happen) it were found that evolution wasn't true, scientists would change their minds as soon as good proof is provided. As I said earlier, this is in contrast to fundamentalist religion, whose followers are often determined not to change their minds, no matter what.

I want to be clear that I don't mean to be rude or cruel with anything I've said in any of my posts, and I don't have any ill will towards anyone.

PM

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Last edited by PatrickMay16; 04-14-2018 at 03:59 PM.
 
Old 04-14-2018, 09:46 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post
Well, would you prefer to be branded as an evil reprobate follower of Satan bound for eternal hellfire? I'm not trying to be snarky or rude with this question.
Why should that bother you? No God = No Devil. Right?

Quote:
The thing is, evolution might be inaccurate, in the same way that the knowledge of the earth being round and not flat might be inaccurate. We know pretty well that it's accurate. Evolution is basically the cornerstone of modern biology. In the same way that you'd be considered ignorant for believing that the earth is flat, you'll also be considered ignorant for rejecting evolution. That's not to say that you're not intelligent - even very brilliant intelligent people can hold irrational beliefs.
Ever stand beside lake Michigan or any other massive body of water? You can easily see the curvature of the earth.

Quote:
But if (hypothetical 'if' - it's not going to happen) it were found that evolution wasn't true, scientists would change their minds as soon as good proof is provided. As I said earlier, this is in contrast to fundamentalist religion, whose followers are often determined not to change their minds, no matter what.
Why do you keep bringing up religion? Most evolutionists wrongly make the conclusion that just because somebody believes in creation, they are also "religious fools" not listening to reason no matter what. I for one, believe religion is heavily used by the devil, a hideout for some of the worst kinds of people. Most of the so called religion today is to real Christianity like a muddy water is to drinking water: Just not fit to be called the real deal.
Quote:

I want to be clear that I don't mean to be rude or cruel with anything I've said in any of my posts, and I don't have any ill toward anyone
Same here. How about agreeing to disagree on our view of the big bang?
 
Old 04-15-2018, 12:06 PM   #82
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Why should that bother you?
What actually bothers me is the 'hellfire' part. The teaching of hell causes a great deal of psychological harm. I know this from my experience of having been a fundamentalist christian, and from the accounts I've read from other people who escaped from toxic extremist religions with the same teaching. I've read stories about people who've been atheist for decades and still wake up in the middle of the night with nightmares about hell. I've had similar nightmares too.

If you brainwash someone into believing that 99% of the world is going to be tortured by burning in a fire for all eternity, and that they might end up there too if they don't manage to believe well enough - well, it turns out that can cause serious mental and psychological issues.

It's also not just the teaching of hell. There are other extremely harmful teachings in extremist/fundamentalist christianity too, that do a huge amount of harm.

I was also trying to make you aware of your hypocrisy of complaining about being branded 'ignorant' for rejecting science. Your extremist form of religion brands other people (non-believers and members of other religions) as much worse things, all the time. 'Ignorant' is nothing compared to the things that many fundamentalist christian churches are saying about atheists every day.

Quote:
Ever stand beside lake Michigan or any other massive body of water? You can easily see the curvature of the earth.
'Macro' evolution is similarly obvious. All the science confirms it. It's not up for debate. Humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor.

Quote:
Why do you keep bringing up religion?
You haven't been reading my posts very closely. The whole time, I have been very deliberately specifying fundamentalist (or extremist) religion, not religion as a whole.

Quote:
Most of the so called religion today is to real Christianity like a muddy water is to drinking water: Just not fit to be called the real deal.
I knew this was coming, the 'other believers who don't share my very specific variant of christianity are false christians being controlled by the devil' rubbish. I think I've heard this from all the fundamentalist groups I've encountered.

Quote:
Same here. How about agreeing to disagree on our view of the big bang?
I haven't mentioned the big bang in any of my posts, so I don't know where this came from. But the big bang is also something that's pretty well proven, as far as I know. To be honest, if I have to choose, I'll take the opinion of most the major physicists rather than the opinion of a random superstitious guy on a linux forum. About 'agreeing to disagree', sure, you have the right to believe whatever you want. And I have the right to tell you that your opinions are wrong, or in some cases harmful, and that you're willfully ignorant.
 
Old 04-15-2018, 12:19 PM   #83
enorbet
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@Mill J - I have a phrase for you that applies to Evolution, Big Bang, and Molten Steel at WTC --- Preponderance of Evidence the only caveat for that is the definition of "Evidence" which you can see a decent definition/explanation here ===>>> --- Scientific evidence ---
 
Old 04-15-2018, 02:57 PM   #84
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post
What actually bothers me is the 'hellfire' part. The teaching of hell causes a great deal of psychological harm. I know this from my experience of having been a fundamentalist christian, and from the accounts I've read from other people who escaped from toxic extremist religions with the same teaching. I've read stories about people who've been atheist for decades and still wake up in the middle of the night with nightmares about hell. I've had similar nightmares too.

If you brainwash someone into believing that 99% of the world is going to be tortured by burning in a fire for all eternity, and that they might end up there too if they don't manage to believe well enough - well, it turns out that can cause serious mental and psychological issues.

It's also not just the teaching of hell. There are other extremely harmful teachings in extremist/fundamentalist christianity too, that do a huge amount of harm.
Every group, religion, government, tribe, etc, etc have a punishment for wrongdoers, right? You steal something, you go to jail. If evolution is real, that means: No God, No devil, No sin, No hell. What kind of a world is that? No matter the crime: Murder, Rape, Theft, etc, etc. you have nothing to lose(exept maybe a little jail time should you get caught), why waste time doing right, when you cant do wrong?. Let the party begin. Ever wonder why crime rates are rising? Oh sure theres probably a great explaination somewhere that MIGHT prove that wrong.

Quote:
I was also trying to make you aware of your hypocrisy of complaining about being branded 'ignorant' for rejecting science. Your extremist form of religion brands other people (non-believers and members of other religions) as much worse things, all the time. 'Ignorant' is nothing compared to the things that many fundamentalist christian churches are saying about atheists every day.

'Macro' evolution is similarly obvious. All the science confirms it. It's not up for debate. Humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor.

You haven't been reading my posts very closely. The whole time, I have been very deliberately specifying fundamentalist (or extremist) religion, not religion as a whole.

I knew this was coming, the 'other believers who don't share my very specific variant of christianity are false christians being controlled by the devil' rubbish. I think I've heard this from all the fundamentalist groups I've encountered.
Well I have never been part of a religous group. But it seems you also bash a certain religion, the EXACT thing you acused me of. Your religion is no diferent than any other. Please the first paragraph here https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post5842561

Quote:
I haven't mentioned the big bang in any of my posts, so I don't know where this came from. But the big bang is also something that's pretty well proven, as far as I know. To be honest, if I have to choose, I'll take the opinion of most the major physicists rather than the opinion of a random superstitious guy on a linux forum. About 'agreeing to disagree', sure, you have the right to believe whatever you want. And I have the right to tell you that your opinions are wrong, or in some cases harmful, and that you're willfully ignorant.
Right on, So have I

@enorbet Thanks for sharing.
 
Old 04-15-2018, 04:11 PM   #85
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Every group, religion, government, tribe, etc, etc have a punishment for wrongdoers, right? You steal something, you go to jail.
So if someone steals a chocolate bar worth $0.50, and the judge sentences that person to an infinitely long amount of time in a prison where the person will be tortured all day and all night with no breaks, what would you think of that judge? Is that a fair punishment for the crime? Does it make any sense?

Quote:
If evolution is real, that means: No God, No devil, No sin, No hell.
This confirms what I've suspected all along - you reject science because you've decided that it's a threat to your religion, no other reason. So exactly as I said, willful ignorance.
And it's completely unnecessary. You can absolutely have faith and also accept science. There are plenty of christians who accept evolution and the big bang, and even abiogenesis.

Quote:
No God, No devil, No sin, No hell. What kind of a world is that? No matter the crime: Murder, Rape, Theft, etc, etc. you have nothing to lose(except maybe a little jail time should you get caught), why waste time doing right, when you cant do wrong?. Let the party begin.
Is that the kind of person you would be if you weren't religious? I do all the raping and stealing that I want to do - which is absolutely none at all.
The vast majority of the people I've encountered in my life have been non-religious, and none of them was a murderer, or a thief, or a rapist, or anything.

In response to your bogus statistic that you pulled out of nowhere - consider Japan, a country where christianity is a minority religion and most people aren't really religious: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime
 
Old 04-15-2018, 06:46 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post
So if someone steals a chocolate bar worth $0.50, and the judge sentences that person to an infinitely long amount of time in a prison where the person will be tortured all day and all night with no breaks, what would you think of that judge? Is that a fair punishment for the crime? Does it make any sense?
That was totally an illustration and you know it.

Quote:
Is that the kind of person you would be if you weren't religious? I do all the raping and stealing that I want to do - which is absolutely none at all.
The vast majority of the people I've encountered in my life have been non-religious, and none of them was a murderer, or a thief, or a rapist, or anything.

In response to your bogus statistic that you pulled out of nowhere - consider Japan, a country where christianity is a minority religion and most people aren't really religious: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime
Exactly my point, notice I did not say people were that way, rather I was leading up to why not. Humans have a discernment between right and wrong.
 
Old 04-15-2018, 06:56 PM   #87
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That was totally an illustration and you know it.
I don't understand what you mean, or what you're referring to, would you clarify?
 
Old 04-15-2018, 08:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by PatrickMay16 View Post
I don't understand what you mean, or what you're referring to, would you clarify?
Oops sorry, I misunderstood your meaning. I now also get where you are getting at. There's a lot more to it than just that. If the guy knew the conditions under which he was stealing, than yes he's at fault, nobody forced him to steal. If you click that agree button on any software you are liable to obey, no matter how unreasonable the licence.

But all that aside. You "proved" to yourself that hell does not exist so why should it trouble you any more than somebody that claims that breaking a mirror will give you bad luck?

I hope you realize that I had NO intention of fighting about religion, unlike you, however I'm kinda glad you did, since it proved to me that certain "science" is a religion as well.
 
Old 04-16-2018, 07:18 AM   #89
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This is getting quite far afield from 9/11 and probably should be moved to the Faith and Religion Mega Thread though I suspect, considering the many posts upset with sundialsvcs starting yet another thread with the same tired and unsupported litany, it is probably a welcome relief tangent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
But all that aside. You "proved" to yourself that hell does not exist so why should it trouble you any more than somebody that claims that breaking a mirror will give you bad luck?
You are under the mistaken impression that morality can only come from religion. It is wise to be moral because of the nature of our existence, not because there might be some Supreme Being threatening us all with eternal torture. We are rational social animals and that led to Civilization. Cooperation is almost always superior to ruthless competition because everyone involved wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J View Post
... it proved to me that certain "science" is a religion as well.
Please explain what evidence supports your conclusion that Science, any science, is a religion.

Incidentally if we are going to explore this in any detail perhaps we could agree to "reconvene" in the appropriate thread? I'm certainly willing.

Last edited by enorbet; 04-16-2018 at 07:32 AM.
 
Old 04-16-2018, 08:47 AM   #90
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Please explain what evidence supports your conclusion that Science, any science, is a religion.

Incidentally if we are going to explore this in any detail perhaps we could agree to "reconvene" in the appropriate thread? I'm certainly willing.
Please note I didn't say "any" science, I said "certain" science.

Yes I agree this thread got out of hand and it's time to move on. I'll pass on that new thread. Maybe in a year or two I enjoy an argument, but I hate arguing about religion.
 
  


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