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Old 02-22-2019, 08:07 AM   #16
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
i'm not very interested in these articles; there's no job in the world that has an exact 50/50 percentage of men/women, and where would that leave hermaphrodites and all those "other" genders anyhow.

nobody is bothered where construction workers or nurses are concerned, but somehow it seems to matter a lot more in IT... :shrugs:
i suspect this could be misread as if i would not acknowledge that there's still a lack of gender equality in this world.
that was not my meaning; there's still glaring discrepancies everywhere, and the fight for said equality is not yet over.
But I do not believe that winning this fight would mean to
  • have a 50/50 quota everywhere, every job, every social situation... how would that even be possible since according to many there's more than 2 genders...
  • treat people gender-neutrally in every conceivable situation - not being neutral is not the same as demeaning!
i don't want to end up in a bland, eventless and emotionally empty society painted in perfectly neutral tones.

oh and btw, i differentiate between sex (biological) and gender (social identity). These are two separate things imo.

so, what about coders? are they just typists, or are they programmers?
the articles did not specify...
 
Old 02-22-2019, 08:41 AM   #17
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I've never understood this whole "it takes a certain gender to do a certain job", it really is an attitude that belongs in the distant past. I can understand that a certain gender might be more adapt at a particular job, but there is no reason why women can't do programming - or pretty much, if not, anything else. I think the first person considered to be a "computer programmer" was a woman. There are women bodybuilders, boxers, etc.

There is nothing that says that any gender has anymore brains than any other gender. To me personally it's just sexist to say "only men can do x, y or z", whatever job it is. In some countries, women can even join the army...
 
Old 02-22-2019, 09:59 AM   #18
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
Edit: Where is hazel?
I try to avoid getting into controversies like this because they tend to lead to ill feeling. I certainly don't think there's anything specifically masculine about coding. But historically girls at school have been put off this kind of career and steered towards more people-oriented jobs because women are thought to be better at that kind of thing. Also there is a perception (a hangover from the machine code age) that coding is some kind of mathematical process and men are believed to be better at maths. I think the "hobbyist" atmosphere of modern coding also puts women off, as mothers seldom have time for hobbies.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of great coders are on the autistic spectrum, and autism is commoner in men than in women.

I once pointed out to my mother that her talent for conjuring up knitting patterns out of her head was closely akin to programming a computer. That's probably where I got it from .
 
Old 02-22-2019, 10:46 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I try to avoid getting into controversies like this
NOOOO!!! You can't do that: you're our only woman!
 
Old 02-22-2019, 10:50 AM   #20
hazel
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I certainly am not! There are plenty of women around here, Celtic Yokel for instance.
 
Old 02-23-2019, 12:14 AM   #21
ondoho
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^ yep, unless you really know 100%, do not assume anyone's sex on the internet.
___________________

i asked this twice now, maybe hazel can help:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
so, what about coders? are they just typists, or are they programmers?
the articles did not specify...
i recently talked to a man who came to our so-called western country from india to work in an it company.
i asked him if he was a coder, and immediately realised i made a mistake. i don't remember his exact answer anymore, but he said: no, he's a programmer. although they do have coders in that company, too.
interesting.
makes sense, just like some executive in any company actually thinks up strategies, and the secretary types them up. or like the almost absolute division between composer and performer in classical music nowadays.
also makes sense that this role division was more pronounced in the old days, where the actual code input was a tedious, repetitive task, just like a typist's, and probably required sitting in a noisy room at a clunky terminal.
am i right there?
it would put a new perspective on the original article.

oh and btw, i'm totally happy that the FLOSS world i live in does not really make that distinction, just like i believe in the unity of creator & performer in all arts.
 
Old 02-23-2019, 06:59 AM   #22
hazel
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When I first started to use computers, "programmer" was used for people who did donkey work. The people who actually designed programs were called "systems analysts". But in those days, all computer programming was done within big companies, and their organisation was probably more hierarchical than would be tolerated now. The kind of hobby and community coding which we are so familiar with didn't exist. Maybe that's why people nowadays prefer to call themselves coders or hackers, not programmers.
 
Old 02-23-2019, 10:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I once pointed out to my mother that her talent for conjuring up knitting patterns out of her head was closely akin to programming a computer. That's probably where I got it from .
Jacquard?
 
Old 02-23-2019, 10:54 AM   #24
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomTroll View Post
Jacquard?
Good parallel! The point is that my mother could imagine a pattern in colours or with cabling and then work out the sequence of knitting operations needed to get there. That's an algorithm.

Last edited by hazel; 02-23-2019 at 10:56 AM.
 
Old 02-23-2019, 01:18 PM   #25
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
When I first started to use computers, "programmer" was used for people who did donkey work. The people who actually designed programs were called "systems analysts". But in those days, all computer programming was done within big companies, and their organisation was probably more hierarchical than would be tolerated now. The kind of hobby and community coding which we are so familiar with didn't exist. Maybe that's why people nowadays prefer to call themselves coders or hackers, not programmers.
thanks hazel, that certainly puts some perspective on things.
so the programmers did no creative work at all, just put into machine code what was handed down to them?
one more time i find out that the real news is just below the level the article dares to touch.
 
Old 02-23-2019, 01:29 PM   #26
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I once had an artist friend say that writing html code was like painting with her eyes closed...which is, I thought, a pretty good description of coding.

I spent most of my career as a "programmer/analyst," which I always knew was a way to get system (or business) analyst work for programmer pay. My pay certainly went up when I began getting work as a "business analyst"...although I still had to do the donkey work.
 
Old 03-03-2019, 05:36 PM   #27
Lysander666
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An interesting addition to the topic:

http://www.startupdaily.net/2015/02/...g-decades-ago/

Also great, but NSFW:

https://flashbak.com/computer-magazi...nd-80s-385222/
 
Old 03-04-2019, 02:12 AM   #28
Trihexagonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scasey View Post
I once had an artist friend say that writing html code was like painting with her eyes closed...which is, I thought, a pretty good description of coding.
I can write XHTML and CSS by hand but that's usually considered markup. It's code to me and if you can read this you can read my code. I see XHTML as structured language and I see it as it should appear as written. I never thought one gender was better at using computers in any sense and always glad to see new female forum members.

Programming to me is using Behavior Modification techniques to change behaviors in people and what it was considered to be in the State Mental Health facility we learned and used it. All my Supervisors there were female and I never felt it any threat to my toxic masculinity or questioned their authority.


I was a Union Laborer at an Iron Foundry in my 20's on a night crew of 6 and one of those a woman. It was hard dirty work scooping sand or swinging a sledgehammer all night. A gray powder called "seacoal" was mixed with the sand that would stick to you and the air get so dusty you couldn't see the light bulb 6 feet away. 2300 degree F molten iron was poured feet from where we worked and suddenly be surrounded in a shower of sparks at any time.

She worked just as hard and got just as dirty as any of us and worked harder than one guy. We were all about the same age but us guys had muscles in places some people don't have places. She was about 6 foot tall and lucky if she weighed 120 pounds.

She would take her shovel and cut 25%-30% off the front so she was carrying less sand than us but working just as hard. Every morning before we got off she would hide it and every time we found it would break it. She's be standing there holding her broken shovel looking at us and we'd stand there smiling. Then she'd go make another one just like it and we'd get to work.

It was only fair because she had just as much heart as us but didn't put on muscle like we did. She was every bit as tough as us just not Krypton strong as we were. We would usually work the sledgehammer job because it was hard work for us let alone her but she could do it and not hesitate if asked. If we didn't all respect her we wouldn't have given her a hard time like we did each other.
 
Old 03-05-2019, 12:28 AM   #29
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scasey View Post
I once had an artist friend say that writing html code was like painting with her eyes closed...which is, I thought, a pretty good description of coding.
i like that.
or like beethoven, who continued composing after he became deaf...
but it wouldn't work if he'd been deaf all your life (if she'd never seen a rendered HTML page).

btw, interesting how in english language, using the small word "her" just once polarises your sentence.
that's why some people like to use "their" instead (esp. since sex doesn't seem to have any impact on what you described).
 
Old 03-05-2019, 04:59 PM   #30
Trihexagonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
btw, interesting how in english language, using the small word "her" just once polarises your sentence. that's why some people like to use "their" instead (esp. since sex doesn't seem to have any impact on what you described).
The use of "her" in this instance is no different than when using "him" to refer to a male. Using "their" would not be seen as appropriate use of English language to anyone fluent in its use:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
We would usually work the sledgehammer job because it was hard work for us let alone thier but she could do it and not hesitate if asked. If we didn't all respect thier we wouldn't have given thier a hard time like we did each other.

It is the context my original use of "let alone" when referring to "her" that is relevant in comparison of strength. If I had chosen to use "much less" in reference to "her" it would been demeaning and not have reflect the respect I hold for "them".

Interpretative use of the word "her" as polarizing my statement a judgment personal in nature.
 
  


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