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Old 11-21-2021, 12:44 PM   #1
leclerc78
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North-German state of Schleswig-Holstein plans to switch to open source


Decade ago a German city (Munich ?) tried but had to come to Windows.
I wish them better luck this time.

Slashdot.
 
Old 11-21-2021, 01:02 PM   #2
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I had a quick look at the interview attached to the report. Interestingly, the immediate trigger was financial. MS license fees have gone up year by year and they're sick of it. Also they want systems that will run on older hardware and Windows 10 won't.
 
Old 11-21-2021, 01:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc78 View Post
Decade ago a German city (Munich ?) tried but had to come to Windows.
The comments on that article claim Microsoft bribed a new mayor, who is no longer in power.


Wikipedia says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
LiMux was a project launched by the city of Munich in 2004 in order to migrate from Windows to a desktop infrastructure of its own, based on Linux. By 2012, the city had already migrated 12 600 of the total of 15 500 desktops, until in November 2017, the Munich City Council (Stadtrat) resolved to reverse the migration and return to Microsoft Windows-based software by 2020. In May 2020, it was reported that the newly elected politicians in Munich, while not going back to the original plan of migrating to LiMux wholesale, will prefer Free Software for future endeavours.
...
In 2018, journalistic group Investigate Europe released a video documentary via German public television network ARD that claimed that the majority of city workers were satisfied with the operating system, with council members insinuating that the reversal was a personally motivated decision by lord mayor Dieter Reiter. Reiter denied that he had initiated the reversal in gratitude for Microsoft moving its German headquarters from Unterschleißheim back to Munich

One of the sources for that article notes there are now a number of European cities with similar initiatives...
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/
Also, in the decade and a half since Munich first started on this course, open-source software has become a worldwide trend. Where previously the LiMux program was something of a flagship model, now, thanks to its five-year hiatus, it's been overshadowed by other European cities like Barcelona, Madrid, and Paris, all of which operate their own ambitious projects in this area.

In Barcelona, for example, up to 70% of the city's IT budget goes toward free software and a whole ecosystem has evolved around local developers.

Would be interesting if there's any statistics and/or collation of information about these migrations, plus notes on what the challenges were and how they solved them, etc.

 
Old 11-21-2021, 01:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
Would be interesting if there's any statistics and/or collation of information about these migrations, plus notes on what the challenges were and how they solved them, etc.
Yes, the details have been published for Munich and a few other cities. But they are very hard to find any more, as there's little to no trade press any more and the titles which remain are dependent on advertising money from M$ and its partners. Many of the best titles have gone under since then and taken their documents with them. From what I read, things mostly went smoothly in Munich until M$ paid to put in a more obedient mayor. M$ not only put in a mayor which they owned fully but also moved some offices there to strengthen their political grip and presence. They own a lot of EU-level politicians, especially in Germany. Basically if one counts either work flow or economic factors, there is no competition between Windows and GNU/Linux, the latter wins hands down. However, once you start factoring the cult-like politics, the facts don't matter.

Some cities are mentioned by name in the Plaintiff's Exhibits from Comes v Microsoft aka "The Iowa Case", most of which are archived over at Groklaw. However, Groklaw is defunct and the external searches won't necessarily find the material.

tldr; scavenger hunt time
 
Old 11-22-2021, 01:34 AM   #5
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc78 View Post
The first article linked is only about LibreOffice, so the comments therein apply to LO only.
But Schleswig-Holstein wants to switch to Open-Source (Linux) completely.
The 2nd article linked deals with that:
https://fossforce.com/2021/11/a-germ...s-hello-linux/

Open Source and being independent from USA centric data mining behemoths has been discussed a lot in the EU, and Germany, in recent years, therefore I guess the situation is very different from what happened in Munich over a decade ago.

I'm cautiously optimistic.
 
Old 11-22-2021, 02:11 AM   #6
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Here is another article from October, but it outlines the plans:

Schleswig-Holstein’s digital minister Albrecht on the switch to open source

There is much more in German starting with the actual plans from 2020.

Schleswig-Holstein has been planning and executing those plans for a while now. M$ always takes time to gather its forces for counter attacks, buy or plant insiders and so on, so be assured M$ will not let this plan go by unmolested either. The deadline is currently 2026.

It's a very long shot, but if Schleswig-Holstein can pull this off, they will have gained not just a lot of saved money but more importantly a lot of freedom and enhanced digital capabilities not available elsewhere.
 
Old 11-22-2021, 09:17 AM   #7
boughtonp
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I would lean towards cautiously optimistic too - I don't disagree with Turbocapitalist, but don't think it's entirely that bleak either.

For example, in 2007 the French Parliament switched to Ubuntu, but in 2012 reverted to offering a choice between Ubuntu and Windows. Sucks, but at least Ubuntu remains available to those that want it.

However, also in 2007 the French Police migrated from Win XP to GendBuntu (custom Ubuntu), and by 2014 they apparently had not only succeeded, but were also recommending a similar move to the South Korean Government.

Five years later, some parts of the South Korean Government are already using Linux-based OSes, and they're performing a pilot test before switching three million desktops: https://www.fosslinux.com/29117/sout...s-to-linux.htm

There are other potential successes listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters

 
Old 11-22-2021, 10:54 AM   #8
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I just found this image of LiMux (see attachment).

I think there were some basic design mistakes made - the penguin with the town's coat of armour for example - recognizable as a friendly tribute to people like us, but maybe a little weird for your bog standard and possibly even patriotic pencil pusher?
Even the name - LiMux - seems a bit nerdy.

I'm sure they'll be doing things differently this time. FOSS & Linux distros have come a long way since then.

BTW, I seem to remember that the switch from OpenOffice to LibreOffice caused confusion and strife for LiMux, possible helped its demise along.
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:57 PM   #9
sundialsvcs
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As far as I'm concerned, "Microsoft comes by its revenues honestly." Just like IBM before it, they offer a tightly-integrated "soup to nuts solution" for many business needs and they stand behind it – for a price. Personally, I think that the price is fair. I have never had any objections to any of their products which I have encountered over these many years: I think that they are of consistently excellent quality and fairly priced.

Commercial applications of Linux usually also "come with a price," which is used to pay for support. Red Hat pioneered this idea and continues to be a very profitable company to this day. (Bought my first shares on "IPO Day." Still own some.) Support costs are much more effectively spent when they can be amortized across a large number of subscribers, counting yourself as just one among a great many.

As far as I'm concerned, this should be regarded as a strictly-business decision which is entirely focused on "what your employees need to do," not on "saving money." One way or the other, you are going to spend money. But, it's simply a cost of doing business – or, government. Keep in mind that, if you try too hard to "save money," you always wind up losing it. "Plan accordingly."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-22-2021 at 10:03 PM.
 
Old 11-23-2021, 04:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
As far as I'm concerned, this should be regarded as a strictly-business decision which is entirely focused on "what your employees need to do," not on "saving money." One way or the other, you are going to spend money. ...
In a perfect world, it ought to be a business decision, a matter of getting the job done efficiently. However, business decisions had nothing to do with the setbacks which GNU/Linux deployment faced in Munich: https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgabe...interview-2/3/

The English language press has ignored Munich as it has ignored other cities and regions trying the same thing. However, the German press has been somewhat more diligent. The question will be whether enough people in both the public and private sectors there will know enough about M$ and how it works to be able to head off the many ways it and its minions will interfere.
 
Old 11-23-2021, 09:04 AM   #11
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As far as I'm concerned, "Microsoft comes by its revenues honestly."
You have the statement in quotes so I don't know whether you're being sarcastic. Microsoft is a convicted monopolist in violation of US law and EU law and, by definition did not come "by its revenues honestly".
 
Old 11-23-2021, 10:25 AM   #12
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I'm actually not being sarcastic. A US judge said that it was a monopoly but this was later overturned. Their software is sometimes expensive, but it works, and they have sold millions of copies of it. There must be a reason. Some of their software is "best of breed" and there really is no replacement for it.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-23-2021 at 10:26 AM.
 
Old 11-23-2021, 10:40 AM   #13
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Only the breakup was overturned. The products have always been far from best-in-test. The sales come from lots of what looks like product dumping combined with apparent monopolies on productivity file formats and OEMs.

Nothing they've done has been honest. Take the file formats. In each and every country that had a standards body that took part in the fiasco that resulted in ISO/IEC 29500 (which no program in the world currently uses, nor is able to use even today) there were scandals bordering on criminal some crossing the line but none prosecuted.

Revisionism is one of their tactics. Now that years have passed since Munich, and many of the old publications such as Heise Online, have vanished it is easier for them to prevaricate about what went on there and distract from Ballmer having flown in or a long time M$ partner, Accenture, being hired to draft a plan for the city.

Nadella won't fly in to anywhere in Schleswig-Holstein for this, but be sure that M$ partners and proxies are already on this.
 
Old 11-23-2021, 12:01 PM   #14
leclerc78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
As far as I'm concerned, "Microsoft comes by its revenues honestly." Just like IBM before it, they offer a tightly-integrated "soup to nuts solution" for many business needs and they stand behind it – for a price. Personally, I think that the price is fair. I have never had any objections to any of their products which I have encountered over these many years: I think that they are of consistently excellent quality and fairly priced.
I think, their weakest is Security while IBM, pioneer with the AS/400, the security is top notch.
 
Old 11-23-2021, 02:31 PM   #15
kilgoretrout
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Quote:
A US judge said that it was a monopoly but this was later overturned. Their software is sometimes expensive, but it works, and they have sold millions of copies of it.
Wrong it was affirmed on appeal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rp.#Settlement

Then Bush was elected in 2000 and like a good Republican, had his justice department give away the store in a settlement bought and paid for by generous campaign contributions.
The EU has also heavily fined MS for abuse of monopoly position.

Last edited by kilgoretrout; 11-23-2021 at 02:37 PM.
 
  


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