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View Poll Results: If you've been treated for Mental Illness, rate the effectiveness
1 2 11.76%
2 0 0%
3 1 5.88%
4 0 0%
5 0 0%
6 2 11.76%
7 1 5.88%
8 2 11.76%
9 1 5.88%
10 2 11.76%
It's too soon to tell 1 5.88%
Can't really tell if it's made things better or worse 5 29.41%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-22-2019, 11:02 AM   #121
Andy Alt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
It seems the "modern" approach is to dope you up on pills, rather than providing proper emotional support.
And it's not even that I expect "emotional support" from doctors, my point was more about it's a bit tricky for people to "recover" when they don't have a good support system from members of their own family, or in some cases if they don't have family nearby or any close living relatives.

Not much doctors or the system can do about that. But it gets to be irritating when there are so many messages that "treatment is available", "you should see a professional and get help", "it's a disease".. raising people expectations of the chances of "recovery" sometimes ultimately leads to feelings of disillusionment and increases feelings of hopelessness in the long-term.

That's one of the reasons it's such a complex issue. Paid professionals, therapists, and social workers can only do so much. However the situation isn't helped much when "mental illness" is just talked about as a "disease", without acknowledging all the life stressors that can cause mental health issues. Trauma aside, just the standard things that life can throw at a person can be very difficult to deal with.

Notice when you read articles about depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc., the focus is on it being a "disease" without any kind of acknowledgement that the pressures of life can have a major impact. Moving, transitioning from high school to college for starters. And, I mean, face it, we live in a society where we know there are people in power who lie and exploit to gain money or power. It's universally accepted that not all politicians or people who run corporations are honest, and that the news media doesn't always provide accurate information. So basically people are constantly being exposed to lies. Some people who have been exposed to mental abuse in a domestic relationship may understand that frequently being lied to by a partner can cause long-term psychological damage. What's the effect when it's on a much grander scale?

When I was very young, I was told about a place called Hell and shown artistic representations of Hell and the Devil. And told if I was bad that I would go there when I die. Pretty scary stuff.

In my teens, I was told that there were enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world several times over.

I was told about this thing called "cancer" and that there wasn't much that could be done to prevent it.

I saw in the news something called "AIDS" that was becoming an epidemic and killing a lot of people.

I was hurt, emotionally neglected, lied to, and abused by people who I loved and respected.

Then I was told by really smart professional people that I had a mental disease and that I wasn't normal enough, and then prescribed medication. Every day, as an effect of taking the medicine, I was reminded of how my brain had an awful disease; and reminded again every month when I went for refills. Kind of like hypnosis, one might say.

God help you if you're a tween or teenager and told that your depression and anxiety means you have a mental disease. If you don't have one, you are likely to get one being told such things!

Society seems to have quite a lot of contradictory and mixed messages. I think the people who thrive the best are those whose primary motivations are power and money. If you're not interested in those 2 things, then you'd better be prepared for a severely extreme bumpy ride!

Quote:
I had a similar thing with one little bastard some months ago now; "oh, I know what you've been through" or words to that effect, and it's like "you wouldn't have even just half an f'ing clue what I've been through,
James, you might agree with this.. if someone "knows what we've gone through", they wouldn't say that, lol. If I'm talking to someone who told me about some trauma they experienced, I'll sometimes say, "I have kind of a vague idea.." or "I can't even imagine"...


Quote:
Hope you're ok now though Andy.
Eh.. well enough at the moment. I'm an Uncle and feel that I'm kind of obsolete now that my nephews and nieces are mostly grown. Family's often too busy to reply to phone calls or emails which is a drag, I know for a lot of people. But Happy to see one of them got married and had a child recently (I'm a great-uncle now!), but also seeing more and more that uncles can become deprecated very easily... I observe that parents feel something similar though when they're kids grow up and move away. I think it's called "empty nest syndrome" (but will probably get promoted to a disease some day).
 
Old 05-22-2019, 11:52 AM   #122
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Yeah, I do totally agree with you.

It's certainly a complex issue, but my point was that; when your dealing with an inept "mental health system", it's often much easier and cheaper for these "professionals" to opt for dishing out pills, instead of actually sitting down and talking with the person concerned, particularly when governments under-fund, and under-staff such systems. As at the end of the day, a complex issue of pretty much any kind can't be solved by simply glossing over the issues that cause the issues concerned. It's the same when you're talking about troubleshooting some computer problem, like we do in the technical forums here. You first find out what the issue is, then get info on their problem and system to try and figure out what the reason(s) might be/is, as to why the issue would be happening to begin with. You wouldn't just tell them to re-install everything and hope that fixes it - unless that was the only option they have.

Like what you were saying above, mental health issues don't simply happen overnight, it's a series of events that occur in one's life that lead to things like depression and alike, often a person doesn't realize how bad it is until they hit "rock bottom". And as you say, with all of the BS people have to put up with in today's world, when you add abuse to that mix, it's bound to cause very complex mental issues, particularly where PTSD and alike are concerned. As typically that's through years of seeing some very distressing things, going through distressing events, and alike.

Yes, I think I can see what you're saying there. To me if they really know anything about it, they would be saying something like "I could not even begin to understand what that must have been/be like to go through that/see that". At least then, they are being honest with you. I think most people could work with that, particularly if they genuinely want to try and help you deal with whatever it is that's caused your depression, etc.
 
Old 05-22-2019, 01:08 PM   #123
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Recently, I read a book by Johann Hari regarding depression, its causes and potential treatments.
One thing he mentioned which struck me was that almost all the people diagnosed with depression have experienced some trauma -- that is that the vast majority of depression is caused by something which would cause anybody apart from an emotionless sociopath anxiety and depression.
Childhood trauma is, apparently, pretty much guaranteed to cause depression later in life and this could be anything from actual abuse to some emotional need being refused.
There is also a strong correlation between lack of control of working life and depression.
So,"the system" tells us that it is a mebntal illness to be sad about loosing a loved one, anxious about having been abused, upset about never seeing a sign of love from parents or any number of other things which, for "normal people", would cause upset.
 
Old 05-23-2019, 12:32 AM   #124
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Childhood trauma is, apparently, pretty much guaranteed to cause depression later in life and this could be anything from actual abuse to some emotional need being refused.
this sums it up sufficiently.
the difference between childhood trauma (as compared to adult) is that anything that happens in your childhood is bound to leave much, much deeper and indelible marks on you, both physically and socio-emotionally/mentally.
in other words: so deep, so indelible that indeed it causes diagnosable mental health issues.
(the reason we protect kids from so much stuff that is considered OK for adults)
 
Old 05-23-2019, 12:50 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
this sums it up sufficiently.
the difference between childhood trauma (as compared to adult) is that anything that happens in your childhood is bound to leave much, much deeper and indelible marks on you, both physically and socio-emotionally/mentally.
in other words: so deep, so indelible that indeed it causes diagnosable mental health issues.
(the reason we protect kids from so much stuff that is considered OK for adults)
I wonder about the "protecting kids from... stuff..." part though. Genuinly not sure butit's tough to know what children need protecting from. I "blame" my own and my brother's "issues", such as they are, on being raised by a mother who, in the space of a few years, had two children, lost their father, lost her mother then lost her father, then the kid's (our) grandmother. Quite how we could have been protected from that I am not sure. I as exposed to "18" films from an early age and some violent video games but I don't see them in my outlook and I am very introspective and ask for comments from others.
By the way, not suggesting you were implying the stuff kids are protected from is sex or violence in media or even that that is a bad thing, just thinking out loud.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 12:15 AM   #126
ondoho
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^ you probably don't realise all the things that went right in your childhood.

in any case I only added that bit as a sort of lightbulb-thought about why child rearing and so many rules, even laws, are about protecting kids from adult stuff.
simple example: smoking is bad for you, but it's worse for kids because their bodies are still growing and it can leave indelible marks on them. that's why you ahve to be a certain age to be allowed to smoke, and that age is more or less when your body stops growing.

I think one can expand this train of thought onto socio-emotional/mental stuff as well.

and whatever concerned parents all over the world do, I think that's a common denominator: until it's done growing up, this child needs protection. it's so common that you probably take it for granted.

now, being misguided in what this protection should look like, or being unable to provide that protection, or whatever else can damage a person's mental health, that's a different topic; we can get back to it now.

Last edited by ondoho; 05-24-2019 at 12:17 AM.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 10:29 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
One thing he mentioned which struck me was that almost all the people diagnosed with depression have experienced some trauma -- that is that the vast majority of depression is caused by something which would cause anybody apart from an emotionless sociopath anxiety and depression.
I agree with that, especially the need to protect children and let them develop. I would like to say a bit about the minority who don't have an external cause.

There was a period when I found myself acting as a carer for a relative with depression (who I'll call Jo). Might be worth mentioning I've had other experiences with both depression and anxiety, enough to be sure of what I'm saying but I don't consider myself to know what it's really like.

Jo - as far as any of us could tell - hadn't experienced any severe trauma, but had all the symptoms of what counsellors called severe depression. If there was a life event that started it off then it was early and well hidden. Having spoken at length with Jo's parents and others, I don't believe there was one.

The lack of a clear cause made it harder for some people, including Jo, to accept that something was wrong, which in turn led to years wasted with "just change this one thing then I'll be fine"... followed all too often by "It's (friend|neighbour|counsellor)'s fault".

My working hypothesis is that just as some people are born with underdeveloped limbs, some have brains that have difficulty processing positive emotions, or that magnify negative ones. No doubt trauma can cause the same effects.

My experience convinced me that it's important to make the point that the various disorders labelled "depression" may or may not be externally caused. It might be trauma, it might not; the important thing is that the sufferers are not at fault, or weak, or stupid, or unworthy, or.... and they are probably not going to be in that dark hole for the rest of their lives, even if they they can't remember anything else. They need to find a way to accept help when it is there, and for some it needs to be there.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 01:13 PM   #128
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Ondoho: I do remember a lot that went "right" and I am really thankful -- I had a lot of learning experinces and positivity. I was more commenting that some minor mental health issues aren't really surprising.

Pastychomper: I'm not doubting you but some seem to think that the life experiences don't have to be traummatic to adults, just something which caused a child to behave a certain way.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 03:51 PM   #129
Andy Alt
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Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
Jo - as far as any of us could tell - hadn't experienced any severe trauma, but had all the symptoms of what counsellors called severe depression. If there was a life event that started it off then it was early and well hidden. Having spoken at length with Jo's parents and others, I don't believe there was one.
Another thing that's often overlooked... this short article about childhood emotional neglect sums it up pretty well.

Not saying that's the case for Jo. But at least for some people, they don't realize they've missed something because they've never had it.

Your other theory is interesting. And definitely some people are just born more emotionally sensitive than others. If you're more sensitive, you're more likely to get hurt by one thing, where as another person might just let it slide off without it damaging them at all.
 
Old 05-24-2019, 04:00 PM   #130
Andy Alt
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Recently, I read a book by Johann Hari regarding depression,
Lost Connections? Couple of coincidences here... I read that last year, and it was recommended to me by jsbjsb001
 
Old 05-24-2019, 04:06 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Alt View Post
Lost Connections? Couple of coincidences here... I read that last year, and it was recommended to me by jsbjsb001
That is, indeed, the book. I read it because I first read Chasing The Scream, which I found myself identifying with.
A friend tells me I must read Twelve Rules For Life, and I do have a copy and have started to read it, but I find it rambling and hard to take any real meaning from. Perhaps I just need to apply some discipline and read it and that's part of the process, I really don't know.
 
Old 05-25-2019, 02:21 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
I was more commenting that some minor mental health issues aren't really surprising.
almost everything that is outside some sort of (IMO less than objective) norm can be diagnosed nowadays.
that means that something like "he's just a little too ..." becomes "he's suffering from ... syndrome", and thus, because there's now a diagnose for it, it becomes a mental health issue.
i'm not downplaying anything; i just think that the issue itself and how one (self or professional) deals with it is more impoprtant than the diagnose.
example: 40 years ago the diagnose ADHD did not exist and alternative earlier diagnoses were not genrally applied to individual cases. therefore one might get the impression that 40 years ago children didn't suffer from that at all - but i think it just wasn't diagnosed.

______________________

I think two different children will react differently to identical circumstances; there is something like personality independent of external influence, maybe even from birth.
 
Old 05-25-2019, 04:32 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
I agree with that, especially the need to protect children and let them develop. I would like to say a bit about the minority who don't have an external cause.

There was a period when I found myself acting as a carer for a relative with depression (who I'll call Jo). Might be worth mentioning I've had other experiences with both depression and anxiety, enough to be sure of what I'm saying but I don't consider myself to know what it's really like.

Jo - as far as any of us could tell - hadn't experienced any severe trauma, but had all the symptoms of what counsellors called severe depression. If there was a life event that started it off then it was early and well hidden. Having spoken at length with Jo's parents and others, I don't believe there was one.

The lack of a clear cause made it harder for some people, including Jo, to accept that something was wrong, which in turn led to years wasted with "just change this one thing then I'll be fine"... followed all too often by "It's (friend|neighbour|counsellor)'s fault".

My working hypothesis is that just as some people are born with underdeveloped limbs, some have brains that have difficulty processing positive emotions, or that magnify negative ones. No doubt trauma can cause the same effects.

My experience convinced me that it's important to make the point that the various disorders labelled "depression" may or may not be externally caused. It might be trauma, it might not; the important thing is that the sufferers are not at fault, or weak, or stupid, or unworthy, or.... and they are probably not going to be in that dark hole for the rest of their lives, even if they they can't remember anything else. They need to find a way to accept help when it is there, and for some it needs to be there.
I think anxiety and depression depend on several factors (both, internal and external). There certainly may be a neurological brain chemistry predisposition to some mental health conditions, but certain life events may trigger them or make them worse. I once watched a documentary about genetic disorders and there was a case of two twin brothers -- both on their 40s or 50s -- one had developed schizophrenia and the other one had not. If schizophrenia is a mental condition with a genetic cause (as it seems to be, according to research), how could you explain this (since both twins in this case have the same genetic makeup)?

And I do believe that events that happen in the early childhood and chidlhood in general can shape an individual's personality (for better or worse). External factors also modify our genetic makeup (it's not "fixed"), especially during our childhood; so if you have some predisposition to a certain condition, certain events can and DO influence your personality later in life.
 
Old 05-26-2019, 06:16 PM   #134
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Just rewatching this Ted Talk which reminded me of this thread:
https://youtu.be/xYemnKEKx0c
Please disregard the title as I think a lot of us can identify with the ideas.
 
Old 05-26-2019, 07:06 PM   #135
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Johann Hari explaining how "serotonin issues" aren't the cause of depression:
https://youtu.be/Hfl3Yh7fS4g?t=489
 
  


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