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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-26-2004, 03:10 PM   #1411
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by davoman
Simple, to-the-point example:
--------------------------------
I downloaded kopete because I saw it was a simple, easy to use chatting program for Linux.
The assumption being stupid people can use it because its so easy & TO THE POINT.

This is where the REALITY of linux comes in:

I downloaded it, and went to "compile" it, and had to make sure I had all this "source code".
I ran "configure", then "make" and BANG.
Again, that's an individual account.

Here, I'll throw one in for the WinDOHs side of
things and ease of use:
I got a notebook, it came with XP pre-installed.
Despite best efforts I couldn't make it talk to my
network in 2 days of searching the web. I wiped
it, and half an hour later was browsing the web
using Mozilla in Slackware 8.1

Another windows example:
You install (using winDOHs tools) a new program,
and later on notice that 5 other programs ceased
to work because it installed a flock of DLLs that
were already installed, but the more recently installed
ones were a slightly older version. Locate the culprit,
install programs again (in the right order! Huh?)

[edit]
Another one I just remembered! :)

Installed upgrade for DirectX, and then the
graphics drivers were stuffed, the machine would
only boot into safe mode @ 640x480x16.
Re-install of Windows the result.

If I try hard I may be able to remember more
(heaps more) of my personal accounts with
the ease of use of Windows, and how extraordinarily
easy software is installed :D

But then, I'm here to help people with Linux,
not to prove how bad windows actually is.
[/edit]


Cheers,
Tink


Last edited by Tinkster; 04-26-2004 at 04:58 PM.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 05:26 PM   #1412
mikshaw
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I don't think it's disorganized at all...it's a very well-thought-out and logical system. It may _seem_ wrong, if you tend to believe that windows is the _right_ way.

Figuring out what "info blahblahblah" is should be one of the very first things a new Linux user does, along with "man blahblahblah", learning how to use a real text editor, basic shell commands, how to compile from source, and a few other important basics. These are core skills of any *nix user.

Many Linux distros are going to continue getting more user friendly, but at the same time Linux itself will continue to have these very powerful features which require some learning. I can't see how that's a bad thing. The more you learn, the less likely it is that your brain will seize up from neglect.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 07:44 PM   #1413
metagore
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Don't get me wrong, I love linux. But when I have to spend an hour researching and patching, and writing scripts..... just to get the wheel on my mouse working.....

Well, you get the point.

Complexity is not synonymous with powerful. At the same time, Simplicity does not mean you've sacrificed power.

I think the main reason many people use linux on their personal computer (other than the anti-MS thing) is because it gives the user a sense of accomplishment when they actually do get something to work.

To comment on the 'more you know' aproach to computing. I agree that it is always good to learn more. But the entire world shouldn't have to know computers the way a linux user knows them in order to use their computer. That would be like expecting every automobile owner to be a mechanic. You shouldn't have to know how the engine works just to get the car started.

.... this thread never dies

Last edited by metagore; 04-26-2004 at 07:53 PM.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 08:07 PM   #1414
mikshaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by metagore
To comment on the 'more you know' aproach to computing. I agree that it is always good to learn more. But the entire world shouldn't have to know computers the way a linux user knows them in order to use their computer. That would be like expecting every automobile owner to be a mechanic. You shouldn't have to know how the engine works just to get the car started.

.... this thread never dies
I agree with you completely....about the thread never dying.
I have the opinion that the entire world doesn't need to bother learning anything beyond click and wait...so we have Windows. Computers are not cars...cars are made to get you from point A to point B, while computers are designed for a bigillion different tasks. It's only logical that the learning curve would be much higher.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 08:42 PM   #1415
metagore
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.... but you can easily equate every single task you perform on a computer as a "get from point a to point b" type of task.

Some people do use a computer for just one thing, as they would a car. Why should they have to learn anything other than what it takes to accomplish their 'a to b' type of task?

Automobiles are more complex machines than computers (contrary to popular belief), but some people wouldn't know it because you aren't forced to know it. And that's the point I'm getting to. The reason Windows rules the PC world is because they understand that the majority of people need a tool that helps them get their job done without having to be a computer geek and spend hours researching how to get something to work when it really should just simply work.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 09:29 PM   #1416
mikshaw
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Many of those tasks each require a different set of skills.
If you're doing only one thing with a computer, I don't think it matters what OS you use...you might as well use the simplest. This is where choice comes in. Linux is an alternative for people who don't care that it's not easy to learn....they are the mechanics of the computer world, just like all the people who enjoy tweaking, customizing, and maintaining their autos.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 09:57 PM   #1417
metagore
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Exactly, I agree 100%.

But the start of this thread was a request from a user that doesn't want to be a mechanic, but still wants the option of using something other than Windows. Is the linux community so arrogant as to say that you don't deserve to use linux unless you want to read for hours upon end just to get it working.

My opinion is that Linux can be user-friendly and still remain a 'tweaker's' OS. Mandrake, Xandros, and Lindows are making the strides towards the user friendly side, which I think is great for Linux. But there will always be the 'grow your own' distros for those of us who have the desire, and the time, to get into the inner workings of the OS.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 12:26 AM   #1418
mikshaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by metagore
But the start of this thread was a request from a user that doesn't want to be a mechanic, but still wants the option of using something other than Windows.
There's the rub...the thing I wonder is "why". Windows is a good system, and fairly ideal for someone who doesn't care to know what's under the hood. I guess they have to weigh the pros and cons and decide whether they want Linux enough to learn a bit about it...it is somewhat simple once you begin to adjust to the fact that the Windows methods aren't the only way to compute. And then there's OS X, which I understand is pretty much the power of *nix paired with the friendliness of Windows.

Quote:
Is the linux community so arrogant as to say that you don't deserve to use linux unless you want to read for hours upon end just to get it working.
Arrogant, yes...at least I am But I can't say that anyone is undeserving of Linux. People should be aware, though, that with a system like linux, with its strong emphasis on options, freedom and flexibility, you're going to have more learning to do. I don't think the majority of developers are nearly as arrogant as some of us users...I think they just don't believe that making it simpler for others is worth their time, when they'd prefer to continue making things better rather than easier.

Quote:
My opinion is that Linux can be user-friendly and still remain a 'tweaker's' OS. Mandrake, Xandros, and Lindows are making the strides towards the user friendly side, which I think is great for Linux. But there will always be the 'grow your own' distros for those of us who have the desire, and the time, to get into the inner workings of the OS.
I agree. In fact I think Linux IS user friendly...at least more so than many people claim. People have some troubles with drivers on a particular distro, and they scream that Linux sucks....without first looking at the larger situation: Linux comes in many varieties, each with its unique strengths and weaknesses...if one doesn't work well with your hardware, there's a good chance that you'd be better off with a different distro. Windows software is coded specifically for one or more of the few varieties Windows, and is usually focused on the single most recent version, yet still has many of the same troubles....even before I heard about Linux, the term "user friendly" sounded like a joke when applied to Windows.
I know nothing about Xandros or Lindows, but from what I've experienced with Mandrake and SuSE, these 2 at least are no more difficult than a Win system already. With both, however, i've noticed that their GUI "user friendly" tools sometimes get in the way of configuring an ideal system...this tends to strengthen my belief that being too user friendly may be a bad idea for Linux.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 01:11 AM   #1419
Dirty_Ink
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I totaly agree with metagore on all his/her points, u see im very new to linux, i just started about a week ago, and i love it, but i coldnt figure out how to run programs that i had downloaded, and its taken me a week, but when i figured it out, i was jumping up and down with joy! (my roomates were laughing but i didnt care) the only prob i have with linux is that it should be easier to install/uninstall programs leave everything the same just give me that.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 07:08 AM   #1420
Bruce Hill
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Slackware to the rescue!!!

This thread, like M$, just will not die.

We're moving to a new home, and will have a new ISP. They installed the phone yesterday and told me the guy would come today or tomorrow to install ADSL. They also said I must have a computer with a Windoze OS. When asked why we couldn't use Linux, the guy couldn't answer. Okay, I'm in China, these particular guys don't speak English (don't even speak Putonghua), so it's probably not worth an arguement. I have a laptop which a guy brought to me with WinXP and asked if I would remove it and install Linux for him -- which now has Slackware 9.1 -- happily.

So this morning I get out my Slack CD1 and used cfdisk to repartition so that I can get Windoze on /dev/hda1. No problem, and since this will be temporary, I gave /dev/hda2 to / and /dev/hda3 to swap -- just so I can show him Slack beats the stuffings out of M$ -- any of it's tainted flavors. I've done this before and made converts, although it's hard in China because so many use a comp mostly just to play games and DVD's, and all software is copied here and very cheap.

Next I put the W2K CD in and booted, finishing the install within about 45 minutes -- with a lot of handholding. Now that is only SP1 and no patches, because I'll promptly remove that garbage from this comp after the ADSL install. After the final reboot of Windoze, the comp started, but I didn't hear that obnoxious Windoze startup sound, and the desktop looked Windoze ugly. I hit the little Windows logo key + Pause to get to System Properties, then Hardware, then Device Manager which confirmed my suspicions. Windoze didn't have a driver for either video or audio, so the lappy has a screen that's 640 x 480 x 16 and no sound. Not very impressive.

Slackware 9.1 found all the hardware -- right out of the box. I've got a 1024 x 768 x 24 screen that's clear and crisp. Only thing I had to do for sound was issue
$ alsamixer
and unmute and turn up the volume then
# alsactl store
to save the settings.

So, Paul Parr, I say fill the garbage cans with M$ Windoze -- where that trash belongs.

Welcome to Windoze.
Your mouse has moved.
Windoze must restart.
OK
 
Old 04-27-2004, 07:14 AM   #1421
mjjzf
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Installation can get tricky with dependencies, of course, but with my system, if that is taken care of from the start by installing largely everything, you can double-click almost any RPM, and it will install itself without further complications. Installing from source is really not that complicated, either - if the dependencies are checked. Every packaged distro should have a desktop document with an instruction of this.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 11:52 AM   #1422
Dirty_Ink
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i think beginers should partition windows and their distro to make the move esier, think about it, when u buy a computer its already going to have windows on it, just install the distro u want next to it, that way u have the best of both worlds, then as u get used to it, just do a full install.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 12:58 PM   #1423
Bruce Hill
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I buy hard drives all the time, and build computers,
and praise God, none of them have Windoze!

Hard drives don't automatically come with Windoze installed,
someone has to mess them up by doing that.

Last edited by Bruce Hill; 04-27-2004 at 01:32 PM.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 01:52 PM   #1424
mikshaw
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w0000!

I think all sellers should consider providing the option "no OS" when they distribute pre-built machines.
A lot of people don't even know that Windows is not a computer.
 
Old 04-27-2004, 02:18 PM   #1425
Bruce Hill
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikshaw
w0000!

I think all sellers should consider providing the option "no OS" when they distribute pre-built machines.
A lot of people don't even know that Windows is not a computer.
Yeah, I wish the first OS I used had been some *nix. But then, God had a purpose
for everything. He gave the skunk a scent to warn you, and now M$ distributes that
little logo to tell you the comp was "Designed for Windoze."

Would you care to elaborate on your previous statement:

Quote:
Figuring out what "info blahblahblah" is should be one of the very first things a new Linux user does, along with "man blahblahblah", learning how to use a real text editor, basic shell commands, how to compile from source, and a few other important basics. These are core skills of any *nix user.
for the Windoze refugees like me? I'd appreciate any insight, or advice, in helping me to
become more proficient with Linux. It seems that the computer knowledge I thought I'd
gained from all those years using Windoze, building and repairing comps -- is mainly rubbish
in the *nix environment.

For instance, I'm becoming quite familiar with info and man, but what would you consider
"a real text editor"? I'm still using pico.
Could you point me to a link for "basic shell commands"? In an effort to attempt to return
to the beginning, I'm reading the Slack book (from the website or v9.1 iso 3) and there
are some basic ones in it; plus I've got UNIXhelp bookmarked, but haven't started reading
it yet.
How does one know which directory to untar a file into when compiling from source, which
I can do, but not with the most efficiency?
What would you consider as "a few other important basics"?
 
  


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