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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2004, 03:13 PM   #1396
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by NOWIN
The point of this argument / forum was to highlight the need to make Linux easier.
Why? It's good, there's no need to be easy.
If you want to drive a car, learn to drive it.
If you have the money, get a limo with a
driver, you won't need to learn.

Quote:
Windows has been refined to the inth degree and will only improve. Stability problems in windows don't arise from utilities they arise because of flaws in the code and how the PC "maps" within the interaction of a total GUI and how commands are processed and what size of code is being sent through to be processed.

The stability also arises from the PC itself not being capable of processing all of the information it's getting. So here one feeds the other. Windows frozen? It probably tried to process to much at once. Is it the OS, the PC or the operator?
Cruft isn't exactly an improvement, mate. ;} And "doing too
much" - what exactly do you do on your machine? The CPU is
likely to be bored out of its tree for 99.99% of the time you
spend at the machine.I was able to do smooth multitasking
on a 486/75 with 16MB of Ram, using a DOS-based Fido-
Client, listen to MP3's and work on a Text-document 6 years
ago...

Quote:
Lazy people? You think I want to spend hours trying to install a Driver for the graphics card?
Nuh, I'll go and buy one that works well out of
the box.

Quote:
Once again it is easier to streamline the way applications are handled rather than have 20 different ways of doing the same thing, each with it's own Advantages / Disadvantages.
Great, now all you need to do is go out there and convince
let's say about 100,000 programmers that your idea of doing
a GUI is what they should be using.


Quote:
Do you think I want to type in code? No I don't.....Does that make me lazy?
Definitely yes, I can't understand that you'd actually
need to ask. You don't like it, you change it.


Quote:
This is what I want.
I want to work quickly, I want to work without software issues. (If Linux is having issues then resolve the reason why, (policy more research)
I want to find an application and run it without need to spend time configuring it. I want to navigate throughout my PC with user friendly (practical / intuitive) graphical features that make it fast.
Stick with Windows then, I promise that I won't try
to evangelise you!


Quote:
Why is windows winning? Because they listen to their clients.
It's not winning, it caters to idiots. There's no clients to be won,
Linux is free...

Quote:
Windows GUI and features were designed more by the public than bill gates (He started the conceptuals but we refined the detial)...
Xerox' Palo Alto lab designed GUIs. They invented the
mouse. The public was content with the crap MS fed them,
and didn't mind to be treated like brain-dead lab rats, and
believing that all their problems will be fixed with the next
release of Windows (Have you heard about 98? It's going
to be much more stable, and have better features than 95!
1.5 years later - instead of fixing obvious bugs - have you
heard of ME? It's going to be much better than 98! ... ).
MS lives on people's hope.


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-25-2004, 03:24 PM   #1397
Mara
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
Mara, that should have happened about a year ago,
all this thread is (and was intended to be by Paul as
far as I can tell from his way of argumentation) is a
"Windows is better than Linux-thread".
I don't know...I'm reading this thread since its beginning and had two or three moments I was close to move it. It's still there, becuse I think there's a point, meaning in this question, without comparision and 'Windows vs Linux' discussion.
 
Old 04-25-2004, 03:29 PM   #1398
Dirty_Ink
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From the looks of the pole up there. it looks like there should be three distros. one for newbies, one for intermediate and one for pro's, its unlikely that the linux comunity would come together and create three distros (and it would help people in making a choice) but one can only dream.
 
Old 04-25-2004, 04:45 PM   #1399
Maidros
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Quote:
Originally posted by NOWIN
I disagree on both accounts.

The point of this argument / forum was to highlight the need to make Linux easier.

So people are saying that windows is easier and giving examples as to why.
Define 'easier'. I have been using UNIX/Debian Linux systems for the last seven years and I find it far simpler than windows. It is certainly much faster and much easier for me to type commands from the command line than it is to click a couple of dozen times to do something simple. The point is that you are switching from one type of system to another and so some transition pain should be expected- Linux is different, but it is definitely not difficult. Windows is what you are used to, so it seems to be much easier to you. If you were to give a honest try to do things in Linux you would find that it is just as easy.

Quote:
Windows has been refined to the inth degree and will only improve.
I am not so confident. Every release of theirs seems to have stability problems and they are no near to fixing things that routinely go wrong. My sister with the new Windows XP routinely gets the beautiful blue screen of death.

Quote:
Linux does exactly the same thing. I have seen it so there is nothing to compare. the whole argument cannot be won here. The only difference is Linux operations, or the execution of, takes the user a lot longer to do in most instances and the GUI is very "striped down" so you cant say Linux is more stable and you can't say Windows isn't.
Well, it happens that my Debian system has been running for more than four years without a single crash (application or operating system). On the other hand, Windows crashes a couple of times a month at the very least. How come they are the same?

Quote:
Lazy people? You think I want to spend hours trying to install a Driver for the graphics card?
The alternative is to pay highway robbery prices for Windows. By the way, most experienced Linux users will install any driver they want in usually less than an hour.

Quote:
Once again it is easier to streamline the way applications are handled rather than have 20 different ways of doing the same thing, each with it's own Advantages / Disadvantages.
Try telling it to people who want a choice and not be railroaded where the OS wants you to go. It is like you get on your car and it decides where it wants to go, not where you want to go.

Quote:
Lindows goes along way to doing this so why are you not following the rule.
By all means use Lindows if it appeals to you. Linux is about choice, so each distro has its own philosophy and goes along with it. So long as there are active users, these distros will survive. There are 'newbie distros' like Lindows and Xandros and there are distros for more advanced users, purists, and power users who want more customisability - Slackware and Debian. There are people who like Lindows and there are people who like Slackware - and there is nothing wrong with either.

Quote:
Do you think I want to type in code? No I don't.....Does that make me lazy?
I fail to see what exactly you mean by 'code'. If you are referring to a casual user needing to type code in Linux, it is not true in 99% of the cases. Of course, people like me type code for their living, so not wanting to type code does indeed make me lazy.

Quote:
This is what I want.
I want to work quickly, I want to work without software issues. (If Linux is having issues then resolve the reason why, (policy more research)
I want to find an application and run it without need to spend time configuring it. I want to navigate throughout my PC with user friendly (practical / intuitive) graphical features that make it fast.
There are already distros that are doing this.

Quote:
Why is windows winning? Because they listen to their clients.
There is no 'Linux against Windows' battle simply because there is no one single Linux. Linux comes in a variety of flavours and each caters to the needs and aspirations to one group, more often than not. Windows is 'winning' because of its marketing strategy and not because of operating system superiority. Also mind you, they have had a head start in terms of marketing and most machines are already running their systems. Most people have not changed from that.

Quote:
Windows GUI and features were designed more by the public than bill gates (He started the conceptuals but we refined the detial)...He asked questions and he got answers. It does not matter how and with what language (lol) he still had the information he needed to make windows the best for most users. So scrub this forum if you want..........If I ran a Linux Distro...I would print it.....
What did Bill Gates conceive apart from carpet bombing the market with his inferior software and then propogate that as the 'standard'? What part of Windows is its own? Most of it was bought, stolen or copied (most often incompetently) from the original designers.
 
Old 04-25-2004, 04:56 PM   #1400
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dirty_Ink
From the looks of the pole up there. it looks like there should be three distros. one for newbies, one for intermediate and one for pro's, its unlikely that the linux comunity would come together and create three distros (and it would help people in making a choice) but one can only dream.
Well, there's
1.) Xandros, Lindash, ...
2.) Mandrake, Fedore, SuSE, ...
3.) Slack, Debian, Gentoo, ...

What's the need?


The only thing is that the EASY ones cost :P


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-25-2004, 04:58 PM   #1401
Maidros
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Location: Haifa, Israel
Distribution: Debian, FreeBSD, Solaris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
Why? It's good, there's no need to be easy.
If you want to drive a car, learn to drive it.
If you have the money, get a limo with a
driver, you won't need to learn.
I absolutely agree with you. It is not as if it is 'too hard' to learn to drive - after all most people want to drive a regular car, not a race car at top speeds. And mayhap, after a little experience, it is easier to drive where you want to go, rather than depend on a car which will more often than not decide where it wants to go, not where you want to go.

Quote:
Cruft isn't exactly an improvement, mate. ;} And "doing too
much" - what exactly do you do on your machine? The CPU is
likely to be bored out of its tree for 99.99% of the time you
spend at the machine.I was able to do smooth multitasking
on a 486/75 with 16MB of Ram, using a DOS-based Fido-
Client, listen to MP3's and work on a Text-document 6 yearso
ago...
I wonder why CPU intensive codes (like calculating the inverse of a large matrix) tend to hang all applications in Windows. The only solution is to press 'reset' button - it seems to see a lot of use in Windows. Similar things never have happened to me in Linux - I run Debian and have not seen a single crash on my OS.

Quote:
Nuh, I'll go and buy one that works well out of
the box.
Most things tend to work well in Linux already.

Quote:
Definitely yes, I can't understand that you'd actually
need to ask. You don't like it, you change it.
I write code for my livelihood. I wonder what not wanting to code would make me.

Quote:
It's not winning, it caters to idiots. There's no clients to be won,
Linux is free...
Probably more important is that there is no one Linux. That is what annoys me most - people who say 'Linux does not do .....'. Good Heavens, if, instead of crying, they were to post the exact problem, there would be answers from one or the other here.

Agree with all you have said.
Regards,
Maidros
 
Old 04-25-2004, 06:17 PM   #1402
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mara
I don't know...I'm reading this thread since its beginning and had two or three moments I was close to move it. It's still there, becuse I think there's a point, meaning in this question, without comparision and 'Windows vs Linux' discussion.
Not sure whether a "compromise" can be reached
here, though, it's quite controversial oppinions here.

Some people seem to believe that a colourful
rodent driven environment is friendly, some
know that the real power and ease of use is
in ASCII configuration files ;)

And it also often deteriorates into "In Windows
I can do this or that!" or "In Windows I do it that
way, I want Linux to behave like this!".

The big difference being is that they can't steal
what they want, or use other means of forcing
a coder to do what they want. But I've said all
that before, too :}


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-25-2004, 10:55 PM   #1403
mikshaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maidros
Quote:
Windows has been refined to the inth degree and will only improve.
I am not so confident. Every release of theirs seems to have stability problems and they are no near to fixing things that routinely go wrong. My sister with the new Windows XP routinely gets the beautiful blue screen of death.
This is something i'm split on. I don't know anything about windows prior to 95, but from my experience Windows has been improving in a number of ways (with the exception of that ME messup). It still gets BSOD, but honestly IMO Win98 was better than Win95, as was NT4 (which in many was still better than 98)...Win2000 was practically a revolution, and XP added some things which home users felt were missing from 2000. The thing I don't like is that with each release MS is going further toward complete control of your machine. With XP it reached a point where i'd had enough and found Linux to be quite cool and refreshing.

BTW...what's an inth?
 
Old 04-26-2004, 02:26 AM   #1404
lailoken
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Oh so much to quote, so I won't.

Anyone familiar with 2000 will know how much *nix is in it and how many different ways there are to do things. Bill is "borrowing" and, working with different OS's, one can tell. I personally like my rodent and I bet even tinkster uses one almost 50 percent of his time on the machine but we won't go into that.
BTW Tinkster, relax, we are all friends, me thinks.
Bill must have felt some breathing at his neck because XP is a great improvement and 2000 is in my opinion great. It is even borderline compatible with non MS systems which is a great leap to admit there are different things out there.

Happy Independence Day!
And for all those who havn't left the Commonwealth yet, The idea is to knock the stones together fella!!!!
 
Old 04-26-2004, 03:37 AM   #1405
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by lailoken
I personally like my rodent and I bet even tinkster uses one
almost 50 percent of his time on the machine but we won't
go into that.
Majorly in web-browsers ... but I don't spend that much
of my computer-times browsing ... ;)

Quote:
BTW Tinkster, relax, we are all friends, me thinks.
Not a problem, mate, I still feel that I should express
my opinion... ;)


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 04-26-2004, 05:41 AM   #1406
aidoru
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the real problem is that you buy a PC with XP "fully" working and well configured for your hardware, you don't install it! Otherwise you should know how hard and time expensive it is to find driver and support.
The way is to buy a pc with LINUX on (and by now I think it's not so easy), taylor made for your system.
From this starting point, the maintenance is simpler in Linux than in windows
 
Old 04-26-2004, 06:14 AM   #1407
aesahaettr
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Hey guys, just to interupt your convo for a minute here, i think you are forgetting the point.
Microsoft is breaking all kinds of laws on privacy etc anti-trust etc and getting away with it.
The idea that buy buying their software you do not actually own it is ludacris. They have complete control over whether they let you use the software or not, and if you install it more than once (and let's face it, windows needs to be installed every few months to keep it optimum) they must approve of it, in any case you are not allowed to reinstall more than 7 times. This is ridiculous. Trusted (Treacherous) Computing / Palladium will entirely ruin free software if it goes ahead. Linux will no longer be an alternative, because there would be no way to communicate with non-m$-approved computers. We should not be fighting over which os is eaiser for n00bs, windows wins that hands-down. We should be working on making linux a viable alternative to give micro$oft some competition and win some of their market share.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 06:28 AM   #1408
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
Not sure whether a "compromise" can be reached
here, though, it's quite controversial oppinions here.
Maybe it's just a common misconception on both parts and the issue is solved or even nonexistent. What if the subject of the thread is simply (mitigating of) the pain of transition? So the subject of the thread would be expressed more precise as "Make the Transition from Windows to Linux easier, please!" This as a polite and somewhat helpless request at the geeks, mind.

For me personally I love to learn, but I lack the time (1 wife, 2 kids (aged 2 and 4), a large garden and my job...). So I started for obvious reasons with SuSE and I'm s-l-o-w-l-y getting the picture. No doubt experienced users would have avoided my mistakes, but coming from Windows takes its time (and effort ). Perhaps when I'm finally retiring I'll go to LFS .

Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
Some people seem to believe that a colourful
rodent driven environment is friendly, some
know that the real power and ease of use is
in ASCII configuration files
Seconded

Last edited by JZL240I-U; 04-26-2004 at 06:31 AM.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 01:29 PM   #1409
rhash
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I think Linux is great and i also think Microsoft is great for ones who just want to use a computer for word processing and have money to burn on software.
 
Old 04-26-2004, 02:37 PM   #1410
davoman
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Simple, to-the-point example:
--------------------------------
I downloaded kopete because I saw it was a simple, easy to use chatting program for Linux.
The assumption being stupid people can use it because its so easy & TO THE POINT.

This is where the REALITY of linux comes in:

I downloaded it, and went to "compile" it, and had to make sure I had all this "source code".
I ran "configure", then "make" and BANG.

I had some crazy 'tcp.h found but won't compile. check autoconf documentation under section 'jksahkasdkas'.

I had to figure out what 'info autoconf' was, and sift through hours of documentation for a completely un-related program. I still havent gotten around to sorting it out.


This is a perfectly clear example of where Linux is NOT just 'harder because its not designed for dumb people'. Linux is dis-organised and has a real identity problem.

Do users or technicians use Linux? Linux doesnt know. I don't know if I'm a technician or a user when I use Linux.

The elitists and wanna-be gurus harm the open-source and linux communities just as much, if not more than any "newbie" ever has.
EDIT: The palladium thing microsoft is trying to pull should be stopped at all costs.

Last edited by davoman; 04-26-2004 at 03:08 PM.
 
  


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