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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-26-2004, 05:33 PM   #1216
akolff
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Balance


Yes there needs to be balance. I to have spent much to much time trying to figure out something that should have been obvious. (like installing the DVD player software properly).

However, as I sit here I'm looking at a laptop that needs a ground up install of WinXP upgrade. (I know, I know but thats what the legitimate license is for and that is what the user wants err demands). The last time it took me over 6 hours to install and then load the updates for XP and MS Office XP.

The last Laptop I load Linux on, including all the software, took only a little over 3 hours.

My point it's friendlier already and only gets better.
 
Old 02-26-2004, 05:49 PM   #1217
sxa
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My install of Slackware took alittle over an hour, and I got the full package.. Now if thats not great I don't know what is..
 
Old 02-26-2004, 05:58 PM   #1218
firehazard
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Good point Tuxrad,

However I am partly inclined to disagree that Linux is more then an adventurer hobbyists learning tool pseudo methodical erect-a-set for the soon to be criminally insane…jk

Seriously though Linux is the future. Even now IBM is sending out Laptops without Windows keys and promoting Linux to be there new OS of choice. We can expect a lot more “newbie’s” in the future. But I agree here with Salpula here. Making a more intuitive bundle is not going to hinder learning. Imagion what the added attention will do for driver support and the like. Ahhh… it’s a pleasant thought, huh. Works, yet fully changeable. Yet, it works…. Memories……..

BTW: Anyone know the trick to compiling the nvidia drivers to the this Kernal? KERNEL_SOURCE_2_4_23_2ARK_I (Ark Linux)

I seen where some people mentioned one to use the Command export CC= gcc32 to address this [gcc-check] Error I get when attempting to run the install. No luck though. Same error. Suggestions?
 
Old 02-26-2004, 08:01 PM   #1219
Salpula
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuxrad
i like your view firehazard... There is no reason for use to bash windows users who would rather design the floating car than learn to re-compile their OS!

But I don't really think linux was meant for them. Linux is an adventure, and if your path leads you to other places than hours in front of a comptuer screen learning linux, than stick to windows..

. . .
let the doctors, lawyers, engineers, and just plain computer illiterate losers keep their windows, and let the real geeks enjoy their complicated linux. don't try to change linux, let the person who wants it change themselves..

if anything, i love to see tons of people around me using windows, cause it makes me feel more unique, and more powerful. i like to see their confusion in an OS that i have worked for many hours learning. Plus, the complexity of linux has taught me far more about the workings of a compter than any class or windows system....
I like firehazards view as well, but the point is one of the great things about linux is that its free, and powerful, these "computer illiterate users" could be enticed to linux if certain things worked properly, not everything but certain things that understood to be "standards" such as java, flash, MP3 players (just cause it worked for oyu on your first time doesn't mean it did for everyone), even some webpages/web applications give me trouble with the newest versions of mozilla, opera, conqueror. If they got involved in linux you never know, they could become curious and get just as involved as the rest of us. I have a lot of friends who would change to linux had they not seen me sitting in front of my computer for days and feared doing the same for things they would use for everyday life. In fact the kid who introduced me to linux uses windows more than linux now for those very reasons. He doesn't have the time to play around and get the standard things working so he can mess with the down and dirty.
EVERYONE should have the option of a free, useable right out of the box operating system with a competetive front end -- front end is also not just referring to gui - and "easy" is not the goal. Functioning is. Linux may be more stable than windows on a boxwide level, but application wise I am no so sure it is in my expirience. It is also not about CHANGING its about adding to it -- if you don't like it tuxrad you don't need to use it. But its there for the doctors, the moms, the lawyers, hell even that guy over in content who is to inept to install aim for himself.
Also on the other hand a lot of medical facilities I've read about use linux to help keep the office running, and make treating patients easier -- one way linux benefits us all.

Last edited by Salpula; 02-26-2004 at 08:07 PM.
 
Old 02-26-2004, 08:46 PM   #1220
witeshark
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IMHO, I have seen enough unreal screenshots to see proof that a great Linux box can be made. That said, it follows that anyone should be able to do it. So even though I don't really need to seeing as my primary is a Mac that I love, I'm not quitting until I have a top notch Linux box, one way or another!
 
Old 02-26-2004, 09:35 PM   #1221
SciYro
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firehazard:from what i recall windows only got lucky, (kinda), IMB was still working with 0s/2 and teh only OS out there was win95 and they marketed it good enough (well, how good do you need when there little to no competion), i remember when i was little wanted to get win95 (i think we had win 32 cuse some of the programs that come with the comp still worked in win95 i think), i never once heard of anyhting about OS/2 untill just about a few months ago when i came to linux, untill then all i knew was windows was the only OS for a PC (i only seen linux and unix advertised as server OS's, making me think that they were big bulky slow runing reasource hoging OS's, good thing windows got so bad i figured a big server only OS must stil be better), so point being : MS is were it is today cuse they marketed a OS that would be good (even tho it still sucked, no one relised it untill it was to late), the only macs i seen looked soo horable and it took 4ever to get the cursor across the screen with mouse, so i thought back then windows WAS the best OS),

now days school teach people to use windows and its products, in my school districk theres not a single mac that i know of, if the schools started teaching and using linux or somthing else then people would complain how windows doesnt make sence and how tehy cant do anything in windows, but can do anyhting in linux,

moral of the story: MS got lucky with windows and shiped out before OS/2 got popular, any competition was crushed one way or the other (see what hapened to netscape and such?, i never even heard of any other ofice programs for windows beside the one MS makes)
 
Old 02-26-2004, 10:11 PM   #1222
Salpula
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I think you are partially wrong. Microsoft didn't get just get lucky, they were smart too. They released a shitty product, and kept improving it so I had to buy 95, but it sucked so bad i bought 98, but that sucked so much I got ME (WHICH SUCKED MORE) and then finally I got XP (I think I also tried to install win2k when it was new and was more unstable than anything else I have installed i my life). Sure I only paid for the version of 95 and 98 but still some people pay for them all. XP is actually a pretty decent operating system. Out of the box it blows but if you tweak it its pretty decent. I've never seen a BSoD on any of the 3 XP boxes I have been running since it came out. Not only that windows 95 revolutionized the gui scene. Windows 3.11 for workgroups and mac guis at the time were shitty at best. Windows 95 offered a decent looking very functional gui, just crashed 3 times a day once you installed more than 10 programs on it. Minimalized windows installs actually run pretty well.

The reason I hate windows so much tho is because when i was a blooming geek I wanted to learn a lot about computers and how they worked so I sat on my windows box forever elarning how things interacted etc. Then one day I woke up and said hey - this has ntohing to do with how the computer itself runs. . . and linux has managed to teach me so much about that - or give me a reason to learn it.
But I think OSX takes home the awards. I've spent much less time on BOTH my windows and linux boxes because I can do it all on my ibook which is as stable and open as linux and as (or more) practical for everyday use as windows.
mmm. . . panther. . . Runs games great too!
 
Old 02-26-2004, 10:30 PM   #1223
Red Squirrel
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I definatly think linux should be made easier. What I find hard about linux is that anything you configure won't be the way it should. For example, I download something, follow the instructions, but something will happen, and that something won't be mentioned in the instructions and I need to go searching on google for hours to find why, and it turns out i need to download something else, and that something else does not work like mentioned etc....

That's the main issue I have with linux that I find makes it harder. A good example of this is that for X to work in red hat, you need to edit a line in some file, but that is not mentioned anywhere, I just had to figure it out myself by posting at a forum.

As far as servers go, I find it's easier then windows. Anyone ever try to do a manual install of php in windows? It is a real pain in the butt. I think I spent about 10 hours once and never succeeded. with linux, I had php running in about 5 minutes, and mysql in about 30.
 
Old 02-27-2004, 12:43 AM   #1224
firehazard
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SciYro … I see what your saying. I however have seen windows 1.0 and OS2. Have you ever worked with OS2? Wanna talk about trash. Sorry, IBM (intermittent Bowl Movement) serves humanity best in the server arena. Windows 1.0 was merely a bad ASCI dos shell. Ugly. Windows 3.0-3.11 again, Dos shells. Something you ran if you wanted to do a few things at once and wasn’t running Deskview in Dos. Dos, held true till about 5-6. With the dos shell integration was catching on because it allowed people a customizable means of scripting complex batch files menus and managing a lot of files which normally would take you a long time to soft through. Microsoft however shitty was the best we had at the time. And in truth I’ve complained more about the hardware then software. I could do all I needed with Microsoft. In the beginning I really liked them. Apple at the time did not impress me at all. My brother got one and it was virtually unusable for what I liked doing. But I could see the charm of Simplicity that still holds true today. I’m not that old but I’m old schooled. Your partly right. Microsoft was #1 due to lack of any real competition. Apples and PCs were so far apart no body I knew really knew how to compare them. Kinda like comparing Capitalism to Communism. Apple represents Communism since everything is uniformed and neat with little to no real room to evolve or customize. IBM clones or PCs were Capitalism and rather chaotic. And Linux will be the savior to them all with its robust multi-platform bleeding edge capability limited by imagination. You can almost watch the evolution in action as distros flop from chaos to order and back again.

 
Old 02-27-2004, 12:54 AM   #1225
firehazard
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Good one Red Squirrel! - To much assumption on the part of the makers. Targeting those who already have the fundamentals down. Assumptions abound, even in long winded help docs. Great if your having trouble sleeping, Bad if your trying to fix a problem in a hurry. Better refine help files. Common problem and solution database, all real developers log there findings and QA documents solutions. Why should linux be different. Online database, or perhaps improve MAN? Hmm..

Windows is a powerful opponent. Linux needs to be Lighter, faster, and sly. Beat em at there own Game. Map the windows keys. Give users a familiar setting to start. Better software (RPM) sorting and management. Pick the best to install initially and let them determine what if anything else they need. And for god sake better driver support and hardware detection. How about going so far as to adding a training applet or GUI maybe, that uses a small terminal window to echo what the GUI does on a command line level. Allowing users to slowly familiarize themselves with regular exposure to command line. Perhaps even pulling up Blurps from man pages to explain the what’s and whys. I want to see this grow from a cult to a religion. Look at what Ark Linux is doing right now and the reviews they are getting while still staying true to the populous with public releases (Unlike Lindows & XandrOS). Maybe 30 minute install after answering Three questions (Country, location, and language) Next thing I know I’m in a GUI Click next, tell it what I want the GUI to closer represent (e.g. Win, Mac, Ark, KDE…ect) and next thing I’m in a fully functional environment complete with Open office, CD burning, USB support, Auto mounting, games, applets…so on) So I had to turn the Nic from Static to DHCP. Big deal. Easy remedy. Looking at this, it’s hard to believe it’s only in alpha phase. This is what I’m talking about. It’s Practical! I at first thought they removed commands since some commands didn’t work from Root. Actually they were not in the path. They dummy proofed it a bit. But if you know what you are looking for you’ll find it. Seems based off redhat. Now with the exception of the Root account being disabled during the Alpha test the message is clear. Linux can do anything you can do better. Installing Nvidias drivers is another story. But did I mention its ALPHA testing?! One CD..Done. Extras CD, A developer CD, and a server App CD. Yet every thing you need to start is there. Newbie friendly with a lot of room to grow, what a nice idea huh? Imagine if a powerhouse distro took up such a couse like Suse for instance. So now I see proof it can be done. Let the games begin.

 
Old 02-27-2004, 02:37 AM   #1226
SciYro
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Red Squirrel: most of you compile problems are becasue some developers 4got to mention all of the dependancies, or they simply dident list them in an ovious place on there web site, this happened to me a lota times (thnkfuly i didnet need those apps), as for the problem with red hat and xfree86, thats a red hat problem, xfree86 worked fine for me and every program i have (i mean everyhitng) is just the regualar non modifyed program , red hat and most other distros tweek the software a bit(who knows why?, it works just fine) , so im guessing thats why your xfree86 dident like red hat,

linux OS's dont make things harder (altho some required/needed programs are hard to get a hold of) it makes things simpaler, iv never ever ever! in linux seen a siongle program that askes me for cd keys, never seen a program try to fight with me on what to do,

iv said it once and ill say it again, most of your problems are jsut do to a lack of simple programs that could be made from scrath in under 3 months (this is if you only code like a few lines a day cuse your lazy ) as for your program installing problems, thats what you get when source code is the main thing, and everyhting is custom compiled for certain systems, if you want binary only that will work for any linux system, then get a closed source OS, or use stuff like java (languages that once compiled run under any system that has the interpritor), or use scripting langauges only
 
Old 02-28-2004, 09:29 AM   #1227
sarah_t_s
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Not wishing to sound "me too", but I actually like Linux... especially Slackware. For the most part is just works, minimal buggering about required and away I go, although I'm finding this tends to be more true on desktops as opposed to laptops (see my unfortunate double post in the Slackware help area).

Really Linux is in a chicken and egg situation that is quite hard to escape from. It needs decent driver suppot from manufacturers whilst 9/10 of the homegrown drivers work and work really well it's those 1/10 that don't that always seem to crop up; I never could get decent sound out of my old Fortissimo 2 and the OPL3sa2 in my lappy is probably going to be an equal pain. Of course most manufacturers won't do this until Linux has a good level of market penetration... and John Q User won't put up with not being able to go to PC World/Future Shop/CompUSA and buy whatever he feels like and have it work; either because the kernel already has the driver or he/she pops in the CD and up jumps a handy dandy "installer" that any idiot could use.
 
Old 02-28-2004, 10:47 AM   #1228
bhooder
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Hey another newbie here,
I have a laptop with Windows XP PRO and I recently
installed Slackware9.1. Let me add something to this little discussion if I may. I remember when I got my first
computer which was a Tandy 2000 - 286 with 768K memory. That was in roughly 1991 or 1992 - Anyway,
back then if you didn't want to learn about DOS and computers, that was tough crap - you just didn't use a computer. You had to know about autoexec.bat files and config.sys files for system configuration at boot up. And it honestly wasn't that hard. I am no genius yet I managed to write autoexec.bat files and install device drivers. I didn't need Windows. But, Windows was forced upon people such as me ( not from MS but from
people who thought that a little typing and thinking were to hard). I remember people complaining about how computers were to hard to use. They were not!!
They wanted an OS that did not require them to think.
Well when you don't have to think you lose control and MS wound up with almost complete control of your computer.I for one never really wanted a fancy GUI but I was stuck learning one because Windows became so popular. So if people who want to learn Linux are stuck learning the command line - so what. I am having fun learning Linux and I read Unix and Linux books as well as the man pages. I am having fun right now installing slackware9.1 on my old Pentium Pro 200 Mhz - a little reading and tinkering and my old SCSI hard drive works( Slack didn't recognize it on install - but a little patience and learning an I got it to work). Anyway just my 2 cents
I will shut-up now.
bhooder
 
Old 02-28-2004, 10:52 AM   #1229
buttersoft
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bhooder

I like what you wrote. I think along the same lines.
 
Old 02-28-2004, 12:31 PM   #1230
sxa
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bhooder,

You also have to remember that people these days who have gotten into computers have only been exposed to the fancy GUI.. For me I had access to my first computer when I was 3, it was an old Apple 2 I want to say, and I remember I had learning games on it, by the time I was 6 I had access to an Apple LC 3, and then when I was 7 or 8 I got my final Apple I would have ever had, it was a Centris somthing.. When I was 9 my father brought home a Windows 95 computer.. They let me keep my apple in my room, and I still used the apple for Word Processing and Games.. When I was 12 my dad got a good deal on an emachines computer, it had Windows 98 on it.. and the old windows 95 machine went to my room (back then I was sharing a room with my brothers) well the mac was taken out, and later sold for $20..

During this time I began to love the Mac GUI, and my brothers and sisters loved the Windows GUI.. I would not think of using a terminal for anything.. I saw my dad use the terminal on our Linux Servers, but I never thought I would ever have linux..

Well when I turned 14 I got my own room.. time for me to get my own computer.. I got a very nice machine (almost top of the line a year and a half ago) my dad and I built the computer together, we installed Windows XP on it, and my dad installed Red Hat 7.1 on it..

I enjoyed Linux yes, but not that much... it would not be intill the release of Fedora Core 1 that I would be addicted to Linux, I installed it myself, NO PROBLEMS!! I begin playing with the GUI, and at the same time learning more Terminal commands.. Then about a month ago I installed Slackware 9.1...

I have booted Windows Twice on this machine since my install of Slackware... Both times to burn music CDs (I hate to say I am not 100% Off Microshaft)

All of this to say that I am not like many of our computer users today, who don't know what their computer is really doing, all they know is they are getting stuff done.. Not to mention these people who are like I once was and heaven forbid they use a termnial..

I still use KDE and Blackbox, and I have tried other GUIs, because I like the looks of GUIs, and I can get things done this way..

..so all of this again to ask you whats wrong with GUIs?
 
  


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