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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2004, 06:34 PM   #1021
vectordrake
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricdave
When do I get what I think I am paying for?
Er, that would be after the third blue moon in May....
 
Old 01-21-2004, 11:33 PM   #1022
sxa
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Quote:
Originally posted by hollerith
RH9 install had everything I needed for this Advent 7900. (Ad-what?). Exactly. The CD full of Windows software that came with my hp-cdwriter makes a nice coaster. The only file I could use off the 10/100 Ethernet card disks was a readme. The quest for the winmodem driver aside installs are easier than Windows. apt goes. apt gets. apt doesn't ask for next next next next finish nooo don't reboo-damn. What could be easier? For gratification through suffering there is Gentoo the tailor-made distro. Windows frustration? Just say 'No to All'.
Linux can do all these great things because Linux was built by the people, not just some folks sitting in my desks trying to think of stuff that will sell.. that is what those people at MS do.. I am not 100% Anti-MS, but if I did not have to use it, I would not...
 
Old 01-22-2004, 02:07 AM   #1023
jriis
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Hi

I want to add my opinion here as well.

There is no need to make Linux simpler as it is, but it would be nice with more automation on the hardware installation side. I have spent almost 3 weeks getting my ASUS Geforce FX5200 to work on Debian and today someone gave me a solution that worked for me and I have tried a few.

The majority of computer users (on the desktop side) who are used to easy installation routines from Windows cannot be persuaded to tinker with config files and compiling source, they want gui's to do their stuff.

But having said that, I think that we are only a few meters away from the finish line concerning browsing the Internet, sending mail and using Office apps. Opera, Evolution and Open Office.org are as easy to use as their remote MS cousins.
My son aged 12 managed to install Mandrake 9.2, setting up network (connecting to my Linksys ADSL router) and was playing Frozen Bubbles within less than 2 hrs :-)
 
Old 01-22-2004, 03:17 AM   #1024
SciYro
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Quote:
The majority of computer users (on the desktop side) who are used to easy installation routines from Windows cannot be persuaded to tinker with config files and compiling source, they want gui's to do their stuff.
i never knew there was comiling source that ever happened in winose... i always thought that it was the software companies that did that for me?

it was teh gui's that just crashed, instaled, crashed, crashed, install, crash, virus sca...CRASH!@!!!!!!
 
Old 01-22-2004, 05:05 AM   #1025
baldy3105
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Isn't this what is meant by make Linux easier? Certainly you could remove a lot of the menu choices by default to make things less confusing for noobs (like me) but wasn't windows a dizzying plethora of funny icons when you first looked at it?

No what is meant by making Linux simpler isn;t its day to day operation, email, browsing, word processing etc. All this stuff is so slick its almost windows like. It also obviously has all the area's, much vaunted here, where it exceeds windows.

But. It should NOT take three weeks of anyones time to get a bloody graphics card driver to work! And this is where Linux is so weak at the moment, lack of serious input from the hardware suppliers.

I myself am on week 2 and counting trying to get not only my GeForce card working but also my sound card drivers. I am a relative newbie and I have been recompiling my kernel trying to get these things working, and that should just not happen.

Installing a bog standard Linux distro - easy (except for those missing drivers), Installing software that comes with your distro - easy! Using Linux day to day - easy! Adding new hardware not supported by the original distro package - hire yourself a programmer, cos he's the only one likely to understand what the hells going on.

I'm a Cisco CCIE. I'm NOT stupid, I'm not unable to research, I'm happy with command lines (nothing else will do on network kit) I'm happy wading through documentation to find what I need, I'm happy to give things a go, but here I am week 2 and counting.

Sort this part of the OS out and you are laughing. Let it fester and Linux will never go mainstream. I know there are people here who don't want it to, but I'm not going to attempt to sort the psycology of THAT one out.

I also want to add my pennies worth on the "but you learn so much using linux" and "well if you can't be bothered to learn anything" arguments.

I do learn. I like it. Its often frustrating and often rewarding too. My wife, who also uses computers is studying a psycology degree. (I'll ask her about those people who don't want Linux to be made easier) She has her own interests, her own expertise and her own agenda. For anyone to say "well if she can't be bothered to learn linux and spend weeks just making it work, she's obviously stupid | lazy | closed minded | doesn't want to learn anything" is arrogant stupid and closed minded.

People want to use the OS to pursue their own interests and studies. They are not interested in the OS and shouldn't have to be. In an ideal world the OS should be transparent, they should forget its even there. Who the hell thinks about the OS for their video? or their washing machine? It just does its job and you don't even think about it.

Windows hasn't got there yet and Linux is way back.

I, and many others, want to see linux kick bill gates in the nuts, but you're onto a loser if only Linux guru's or people with bog standard old hardware can use it.

Jesus I can talk, I'll shut up now.

Pete
 
Old 01-22-2004, 07:52 AM   #1026
rocannon
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my point exactly...

we all want different things from our OS, and to say that there is only ONE TRUE WAY is akin to talking about religion.... brrrrr!

finger pointing and name calling is so counter productive
 
Old 01-22-2004, 10:16 AM   #1027
Bruce Hill
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For some of you guys who don't know, Linus Torvalds wrote the Linux
kernel to improve on Minix, not to compete with Micro$loth. It's about a
streamlined, free to download and use product. It's not designed to be
"easy to use," or to "work with all your particular hardware." If you want
Linux like that, go build a new computer and only buy hardware that has
a sticker on the box that says Designed for Linux

If you got the bucks, I'll sell you one and you won't have to think. You can
just grab a mouse and point and click like in the before Linux days.

Last edited by Bruce Hill; 01-22-2004 at 10:21 AM.
 
Old 01-22-2004, 12:28 PM   #1028
baldy3105
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Linus wrote in his book -

"It also makes me personally convinced that if we're still talking in a big way about operating systems fifteen years from now, something is seriously wrong somewhere........the fact is that, statistically speaking, nobody wants an operating system.
In fact nobody even wants a computer. What everybody wants is this magical toy that can be used to browse the Web, write term papers, play games, balance the checkbook, and so on. The fact that you need a computer and an operating system to do these things is something that most people would rather not ever think about."

So he understands where he is going even if you don't.
 
Old 01-22-2004, 01:00 PM   #1029
sxa
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Quote:
Originally posted by baldy3105
Linus wrote in his book -

"It also makes me personally convinced that if we're still talking in a big way about operating systems fifteen years from now, something is seriously wrong somewhere........the fact is that, statistically speaking, nobody wants an operating system.
In fact nobody even wants a computer. What everybody wants is this magical toy that can be used to browse the Web, write term papers, play games, balance the checkbook, and so on. The fact that you need a computer and an operating system to do these things is something that most people would rather not ever think about."

So he understands where he is going even if you don't.
Linus was very correct, people want easy to use super computer, one day people will know so much about computers and computers will be able to do so much that computers will be second nature to everyone. Right now you can go up to your average joe and ask "What OS Do You Run?" They will respond "What's an OS" Your response might be "OS stands for Operating System, do you know what windows is, thats an OS" their response "Yeah I have Windows"

This won't change if Chinaman, and the others who might agree with him stay thinking they way they think. Linux is getting easier with every new release.. I have already convinced a couple of people to try linux. One guy my computer teacher I gave him the Fedora Disks so he can set up a FTP server at his house. I have spread the Linux word to many of my Ham Buddies who do not yet use linux, but are intereted.. I have given them many sites, like iso.org and linuxquestions.net I have told them to use the KDE or Gnome at first, and that Linux is really easy if you know about computers.

Linux will become easier.. atleast one day, we just have to make sure it does not turn out like Windoze...
 
Old 01-22-2004, 09:03 PM   #1030
Bruce Hill
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It is my opinion, so don't let it bother you fellers, that if one is
to make *nix "easy to use like Windoze," it would then become
a bloated piece of trash just like Windoze XP. It doesn't appear
from that snippet that Linus says he's interested in designing the
kernel to do just such a thing, but then, I haven't read his book.
Is it available online? I doubt very seriously it's available in a
bookstore where I live. They discourage "free thinking" here... :}

Mirco$loth has pretty much provided just what your Linus quote
describes. I've installed it on many comps I've built, and for the
most part, the users don't know anything more than "I just click
and it happens." The mouse wears out on their comp long before
the keyboard. And when they call with a problem, they don't ever
have a clue "what happened to cause this," and almost to a man,
they say, "I didn't do anything," as if their computer is so smart
that it's begun executing commands while they sleep.

IMO the fact that Linux is not easy to use is a plus, not a minus. The
only camp interested in making it as easy to use as Windoze is the
camp that wants to sell a Linux distro to make money - such as RedHat,
who basically just admitted they can't do it. You say "Linux is getting easier
with every new release." Why is that? Could it be because there are
more drivers provided in each new release? How much time do you spend
reading threads at LQ and trying to help someone else? The Mandrake,
SuSE, RedHat, and Fedora posts I read have so many things that go
wrong that aren't even handled the way distros like Debian, Gentoo, and
Slackware handle things. It's those commercial distros that are trying to
package a "Windoze-like" Linux distro that have so many strange problems. :{
 
Old 01-22-2004, 09:45 PM   #1031
sxa
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Chinaman, I am going to make another comparison.. this time with Older Ham Operators, and Hardcore Linux Guru's..

The Older Ham Operators Don't want the code to be dropped, they don't want questions to get easier, and they don't want to loose CW.. Most The Newer Ham Operators do mostly the 2 meter band on voice, and they use all the new easier to use radios..

Hardcore Linux Guru's Don't Want Linux to become easier, they don't want to loose the terminal, most of the newer linux people like to see these commercial distro's, because while being linux stable, they are easy to use..

Chinaman, I am not a programmer, and I am lazy. Like the many computer users out there I want to find the easiest way to do things. Even know I love computers, I am so lazy that I know want to fiddel with getting things installed.

So you ask why should I not go back to windoze? Well windoze is slow, and unstable.. Linux is fast and stable, and the easier I see it getting the better.. I hope to see Fedora Core come with Mozilla Firebird, and the Java Plugin, with a decent CD Burner Program, and a DVD player/Mpeg Player right out of the box.. along with many of the other things that people use on an everyday basis.. Also I hope to see them find better way to compress the files so they don't take up so many CDs.. I want to see life get easier for us all...
 
Old 01-22-2004, 10:09 PM   #1032
witeshark
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Well Linux is not hard if you are willing to play and read a lot. I am having much fun doing just that. But it's also the principle of an OS that is closed source and expensive and basically defective. Needing mondo hardware just to run the patch-and-fix overhead is simply not right. The vulnerabilities of the "best" browser in terms of spy-ware and such result in YET more overhead --yea there we go ANOTHER icon in the sys tray! Firewall, ad-aware spy-ware search and destroy. It's ridiculous. Win 3.1 was BETTER then 95/98. XP is OK but so overhead loaded that became the driving force for my switch to Linux/Mac. It's more fun to learn Red Hat then it is to run search and destroy every week.
 
Old 01-22-2004, 11:21 PM   #1033
sxa
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How can you say Windows 3.1 was better then 95/98? I mean 95/98 were good.. but they were better then 3.1.. IMHO that is...
 
Old 01-22-2004, 11:26 PM   #1034
witeshark
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3.1 was tighter. more of the well respected KISS keep it simple. 95/98 had such security holes -- just like a network-nighborhood WITH ALL THE PORTS (doors) open.
 
Old 01-23-2004, 08:07 AM   #1035
ricdave
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<<< Linus Torvalds wrote the Linux
kernel to improve on Minix, not to compete with Micro$loth. >>>

So? What does that have to do with making Linux more easily usable? Isn't that what KDE is all about? Should Linux stand still?
 
  


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