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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-17-2004, 09:27 AM   #976
r_a_smith3530
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Quote:
Originally posted by natalinasmpf
I tell you why Windows makes configuration so fast. They'have packed along with auto-configuration of your flash drive, 50,000 other components you won't use, like a http server located at port 5000 and its UDP counterpart at port 1900, and everything else built-in. You can't specify you want it out. What about Windows Messenger Service that allows pop up ads without your permission to appear on your desktop? DCOM (and its exploits?)? ALl these un-needed services were included along with your WLAN configuration because it had a "include everything" policy. Which slows down your computer, gives it leaks and exploits and security loopholes, and wastes resources.
To some degree, I would have to agree with you here. You wanna see what Windows loads that you don't need? Boot your machine on Winternals' ERD Commander Pro 2002. Yes, you will get drivers for several flavors of SCSI RAID, even though your machine has only IDE drives, and yes, that adds bloat to the OS, but as you yourself stated, that makes configuration so much faster. Like most things in life, it's a tradeoff.

Your comment about Windows Messenger Service is also quite valid. By default, Mozilla allows pop-ups. It will then ask you if you want to receive pop-ups in the future, and if you tell it NO, you won't get any more pop-ups, including some that were designed into a page that you want!

As I mentioned earlier, I have four machines in front of me. The two desktops are the same hardware paltform, one running Windows 2000 Pro, and the other loaded with Mandrake 9.2. I can get my Windows 2000 Pro booted and into the two apps that I use most frequently, Outlook 2000 and Word 2000 faster than I can get Mandrake booted and the counterparts to the two Win applications I use open, OpenOffice.org Writer and Ximian Evolution.

As for giving your system leaks and security loopholes, that is why Knowledgebase Updates, and there associated patches are available, much like the 80 or so updates that I recently installed to my freshly built Mandrake 9.2 system, an OS that has only been out for several months.

With Windows, I can be fairly confident that I am going to be able to take advantage of the latest hardware out there. The same cannot be said of Linux. Now, in all fairness, that is not Linux fault. Manufacturers don't write drivers for Linux for two reasons. One is that the demand is not there. The second may be the manufacturer's proprietary nature. If the driver isn't released under the GPL, will it be included in the next distro that you download from Debain, Fedora or Mandrake's site? Probably not.

To wrap this up, I am not saying that either OS is better, just that they both have their place. For many users, MS Windows, with its added bloat and security holes, makes more sense, as it is also more convenient and requires less of a learning curve. Much of the security issues can be dealt with through the patches that are released through Redmond or are available through third party anti-virus vendors. Linux, on the other hand, offers its users a system that is inherently more configurable to the indiviual's own taste. That configurability comes at a price however. That price is a much steeper learning curve, and the inability to use the very latest of widgets that are released. In some cases, this gets corrected over time, as coders within the Linux community get to work, creating modules to run new hardware. At other times, one just loses out. My Fuji digital camera is a perfect case in point. The camera has been out for slightly over a year now. I bought it before I began using Linux. It is not recognized under Linux, and there is no driver out there for it. In consulting the manufacturer, they said that they have no intention to write a Linux driver. Do I throw away my three hundred dollar camera? No, I continnue to own a machine running Windows, so that I can use it as it was designed.

Then there's the issue of said nephew, and the lack of a tax application!

Rob Smith
 
Old 01-17-2004, 09:41 AM   #977
r_a_smith3530
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Quote:
Originally posted by hollerith
I spent too long trying to configure things I wasn't meant to and couldn't.
If Windows was any good we would not have any Slack.
Bill doesn't live here anymore.
It really is 'My Computer'.
Conversely it could be said that if Slack were any good, we wouldn't have Windows, but we do, so does that mean that Slack is bad? For that matter, the same arguement could be used for other Linux distros. How about, if Slack was any good, we wouldn't have SuSE, or Mandrake, or Debian. Get the picture?

And even my Windows machines are still "my computer", even if it has some extra software loaded in. The same goes for my Mandrake boxes.

I believe that competition is healthy. Products evolve and improve due to competition. It is when monopolies exist that products stagnate. Mr. Gates may not realize it, but one of the best things that ever happened to Windows is Linux. In the end, Microsoft will have to step up to the plate to remain competitive.

Conversely, Windows is the best thing that ever happened to Linux. The existence of Windows, and its strengths are a mark that Linux must constantly aim for. That it does so quite decently is to its credit and the credit of those creating it and the associated GNU applications.

Now, where's the tax software guys?
 
Old 01-17-2004, 09:55 AM   #978
r_a_smith3530
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Quote:
Originally posted by IBall
With regards to a control panel;
For Example, In redhat 9, to adjust network settings:
1) System Settings / Network and SS / Security Level
2) System Tools / Internet Config Wizard and ST / Network Device Control
3) However many command line utilities such as ifconfig, etc
You have to search through many diferent places to change settings if you don't know exactly where they are.

If this was all in a central repository, this would be much better. Similar to the KDE Control Centre, or the Windows Control Panel
I have to agree wholeheartedly Ian. In Windows, one has the ability (at least in NT variants) to go to the command prompt and use commands like 'ipconfig' and 'net use'. You can do quite a bit in Windows without ever using a wizard, but they are there for your convenience and, in some cases, speed.

It would be nice to see a universal Control Panel for Linux, preferably for my taste in KDE, although a like version for GNOME should be available. This Control Panel should allow users to change most of their settings in Linux, like the Windows counterpart. It also needs to work. The worst thing is to go to a Control Panel setting, as I recently did under Fedora, start a service, have the system confirm that the service was started, and then not be able to use it because it was in fact NOT started!

And, Linux needs tax software!
 
Old 01-17-2004, 10:16 AM   #979
r_a_smith3530
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Quote:
Originally posted by stabile007
Now hey, Thats not nice :-p
Yes I use Windows and yes I like it. And no I'm not a fool.

Do I use linux? Not really mainly because Im desperate to get the gentoo install to work at the time but I dont know it was more of a novelty then using an OS well at least this was with Redhat. Im trying to seriously get into it which is why I want to use gentoo cause I feel as far as choice comes its the best option.

But you know not all Window users are fools. Thats all Im trying to say. And I see what King was saying. Yes its preinstalled on like every PC> But its like the same thing with Intel chips. Bring someone who knows nothign about PC's into a store and blab about Jiggabytes of space and all that and just mention it has a Pentium 4 and they will buy it. Say it has an AMD Athlon and they will be like "Wtf is that?"
Yes, I have to agree with you. I know a surgeon that uses Windows. He's an excellent doctor. He uses his computer for communications, through e-mail and more traditional correspondence, for research, and to write things like position papers. He spends far too much time studying what he does best, namely, fixing broken people, to be able to devote time to the steep learning curve required for Linux at present. Does that make him stupid, or even a fool? I think not. It does make those that would call him that look pretty foolish however. That their minds are so narrow as to not to be able to see beyond the screens of their own monitors points to their shortcomings. If you think that you are so smart because you can use Linux, and others so dumb because they use Windows, try opening someone's head and fixing their aneurism some time. Now, that's a learning curve!

Now, where's that tax software? I thought that it was here somewhere. Oh, there it is, over by the Windows.

Rob
 
Old 01-17-2004, 10:57 AM   #980
sxa
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Registered: Aug 2003
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@rob I agree with you, there is a growing need of computers in every field, people find windows easy to use, that doctor friend of yours most likley does not have the time it takes to sit down with linux and learn everything there is to know about it. I think this argument yet it pointless, there will always be a need for each OS, where my dad works that have a network comprised of Macs, PCs, and Linux Boxes.. the majority are PCs (used to be mac) my dad knows each OS very well. Some of the software and such required for them to use is only for the Mac or PC, and some of the people just perfer macs and PCs, and it would take way to much time for my dads staff to teach linux to all these people. Linux is for geeks, and those who are extreme computer users.. its slowly changing, I think the questions here is wheter or not its changing for the worst of for the best.. is making it easier a good thing?
 
Old 01-17-2004, 05:16 PM   #981
hollerith
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if microsoft was any good there would be no linux
spent too many hours trying to configure things I wasn't meant to and couldn't
bill doesn't live here anymore
it really is 'My Computer'.
 
Old 01-17-2004, 06:11 PM   #982
LinuxMWB
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Registered: Jan 2004
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Being a nOOb; just figured out what it meant yesterday, been Linuxized for about 3 mos., and I've all my hardware; nVidia FX 5600 SB Live! Athlon 2600+ HP CDR-W cable modem NIC Mitsumu DVD-Player, running aok. It is just 'different', not hard. So if I can go from being one of the FIRST WinDOS users from 1983-present; had a computer that booted to BASIC ROM and had no HDD or OS just FDD once , to a full blown Linux box in 3mos. then I think it is easy enough.

And I can not say it enough. Research, BACKUP! and just remember you are learning to walk again.

Last edited by LinuxMWB; 01-17-2004 at 06:56 PM.
 
Old 01-17-2004, 06:43 PM   #983
MasPreguntas
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Hello All,

I just wanted to let the newbies know that at some point even the experts had to start somewhere. Linux is a new and exciting operating system. When you catch the bug, you want everything to work the first time so that you can 'play around' with it. Several of the new distro's make it extremely easy for aspiring Linux users to install the system.

However, things do not always install properly or data is filled in incorrectly. This leads to headaches and anxiety for new users (especially when you want to dual-boot or own only one system.). Most of the people that have the knowledge you seek learned by.... READING THE MANUAL. You hate those words right now don't you? This is an unfortunate truth to using Linux. When you take the time to read the documentation, you will gain more understanding of what the application, driver, etc. will do. That is why you are reading this right? After you have done some research, most people on forums will help with a specific problem. Do not expect much when you post, "How do I partition my disk?" Volumes of data are out there, and nobody likes to repeat themselves several times.

If you are considering a switch from Windows to Linux and have zero experience with Unix-like operationg systems, you could try Slackware's ZipSlack. Here is a quote form the Slackware site::


“ZipSlack” is a special version of Slackware Linux. It's an already installed copy of Slackware that's ready to run from your DOS or Windows partition. It's a basic installation, you do not get everything that comes with Slackware. If you want everything with ZipSlack, then you should try “BigSlack”.

ZipSlack gets its name from the form it's distributed in, a big .ZIP file. Users of DOS and Windows will probably be familiar with these files. They are compressed archives. The ZipSlack archive contains everything you need to get up and running with Slackware.


Redhat Fedora is also a fairly easy install that will automate the dual-boot process. It is also very 'graphical' during the install, something that most Windows users still appreciate. Fedora also has an automated update notification application that runs in the task bar.

Basically, I am trying to tell you not to give up. Linux is rapidly improving for desktop use. If you take some time to learn how Linux works, then you will be rewarded with a depth of knowledge that will help you with any operating system (even Windows).

One last comment about one OS being better than the other. In business, computers are tools to get work done. If Windows can do the job better than Linux, then I use Windows. Most of the time I use Linux for the servers and XP for the desktop. This should change in the Fall of 2004 thanks to StarOffice / OpenOffice. Just my two cents.

-MP
 
Old 01-18-2004, 03:06 AM   #984
natalinasmpf
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Btw, I hope you didn't confuse Windows Messenger Service with normal pop-up ads - these are pop up ads you get even without a browser open, I just thought you did since you mentioned Mozilla - which by the way can configure what pop up ads it blocks, and doesn't block "click to open new window" thing since its basically the kind of "exit - new window" and "open window - new window" javascript things it targets.

As for your new camera, you can get a kernel to recognise new hardware by listing/scanning/etc. your hardware under /proc/, usb directories and whatnot. You then simply turn the module on (ie. by cross-referencing the module to the hardware location (ie. 0x247 - which would have been listed in reference to the hardware, which would have sent its title to the kernel) and its other particular workings of addresses - which is loaded in a module load configuration file under /etc/. Probably your kernel recognises your camera, it doesn't know how to use it. It sent a message to your device, it gave info back, but doesn't know which modules to use.

Standard modules usually work, and you could also try using wine utilities to "translate" the drivers stored in the hardware into Unix shared objects, etc.
 
Old 01-18-2004, 08:46 PM   #985
andyflagg
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After reading all the comments, I prefer the Command Line Interface (CLI) very much.

I started with UNIX System V in 1987 and loved it. On the PC side, Novell server and workstations, and then into MS DOS 3.3 then Windows 3.1 and beyond to what we have today. Working on Cisco routers in the IOS requires lots of CLI knowledge and courage.

For Linux, RedHat on servers and Debian (Lindows) on workstations. I tried FreeBSD years ago and had a hard time learning it. On the non- open source world of Microsoft Windows, etc.. I prefer Windows NT/2000/XP workstation and then Windows 2000 Server or the new Windows 2003 Server. I don't like Microsoft's new boot methods saying "Wait.... wait... and wait" ... I prefer the debugging mode so I know where the OS stopped on boot if it does at all..

Programming for me started in Assembly, then C on Microsoft C6 and C7, then Apple Pascal, over to VB3/4/5/6, WinC, C++ and on. Now, one has to know all sorts of languages, 3GL, 4GL, 5GL etc.

My point is that Linux is an awesome product. Talking with my girlfriend she said that she realizes that knowing any CLI is very powerful. She is just learning MS-DOS and the power of all the keystrokes without the need for a mouse.

It's all good!! I love LINUX now that I use it at work at all times!

Andy
http://www.andyf.com
 
Old 01-18-2004, 11:37 PM   #986
sxa
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Quote:
Btw, I hope you didn't confuse Windows Messenger Service with normal pop-up ads - these are pop up ads you get even without a browser open,
I seem to get these all the time on my windows box, and they are now from Windows Messenger Service, they are from spyware, or so I think.. yet my Ad-Aware can't find it... In linux with the Mozilla pop-up stopper, I NEVER get pop-ups...
 
Old 01-19-2004, 01:37 AM   #987
zzZoiDzz
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Well i will chime in here as a person who installed linux for the first time yesterday. I have been working on and with windows based computers for almost 10 years and am very comfortable doing anything on them. So far with linux i spent a few good hours setting up my network at work because confused eth0 with eth1 somehow. Why eth0 couldnt just say "INTEGRATED WIRELESS" or something is beyond me. God knows it would have saved me a ton of time and forum posts. And as for the past 3 hours i have been surfing the internet trying to figure out why the 10 different applications wont install because each one says so so package is missing. Everytime i download a package it says i can't install that package cause im missing another one. ??!?!?! where does it end? I will say this though. If it wasnt for this shitload of headaches and me reading and thinking then i wouldnt learn anything about linux at all other than how to use some of the programs. So i guess i hear both sides of the story here. Peace
 
Old 01-19-2004, 01:43 AM   #988
lostchild
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Newb here!

I'm probably repeating alot of the previous points made in the last 66 pages of this thread, but I'm really new to all this linux stuff and in honest opinion, linux can cater to two audiences:

Hardcore users and mainstream newbs like me.

It's obvious why hXc users like linux but there's alot of potential for linux to be mainstream. I'm using Mandrake 9.2, it's relatively easy to use, except a few parts so it's not exactly perfect yet. If someone comes out with a full-blown perfect mainstream product like lindows or mandrake, i'm pretty sure that could take a bite into microsoft's market share. There is a demand for affordable computing and an operating system that is extremely easy to use yet powerful enough to handle simple and big tasks such as word processing or video editing software.

I would put down $100 for an operating system that works perfectly instead of $200 for windows xp.

I have 4 computers in my house and paying full price for XP is way too much. As soon as I figure out Mandrake Linux and other linuxes, it's going to be installed on all 4 computers.

Thing is I don't have time to "figure out" stuff. Problem is with Windows XP, I'm wasting time fixing it rather than doing work or sleeping.

My $0.02.

I want to see a perfect version of an easy to use linux that can seriously go up against windows XP. Maybe Mandrake 10
 
Old 01-19-2004, 02:54 AM   #989
studpenguin
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This post is not meant to be an insult against anyone in particular, but I have to vent against a certain old school of thought among some of the geekiest of geeks.


That is,

The linear left brain minded dullards and dorks

who must have a very specific space for every pair of socks and every pair of underewear in their dressors
who only read one novel at a time sequentially page by page, cover to cover
who think real men must use a keyboard interface
who never see sunlight on their faces because they are cloistered and agoraphobic in some cold damp gloomy climate such as the Pacific Northwest, Northern Europe, the British Isles, Siberia or Antarctica.
who seldom have any sponteneity

and

who live in constant jealous constipated fury that their knowledge and skills and training are not nearly as esoteric and coveted as they use to be
in their overrated overpriced "formal educations" at Universities in rigid puritanical worlds

because nowadays anyone can find a good online computer reference source such as this one:

http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/

or for that matter for about any topic imaginable in the entire world and become very well educated

and moreover as was written in post #1 which is so aptly true:

"the hard core Unix/Linux users want to keep it complicated to protect it, and keep ther skills in demand"

Hardcore Linux/Unix users, if you want to be renowned, get a life beyond promoting that people chase their asses in a never ending scavenger hunt for "open source software".

If you ever really had any intentions to rival the Big Bill Gates Empire --- then you'd be a little more considerate to people who know true joyful experiences in life don't involve sitting in front of a computer or punching and crunching numbers with a calculator

and maybe just maybe you'd earn a little more cash then your're making as a side beneft too --- because you see people respect and are willing to pay good money for honest candid concise teachers who don't complicate matters,

rather than a bunch of piggies in cold clammy dark places oinking away one Acronym, encryptic piece of jargon, or buzzword software one after another again and again and again and again, always thinking in the back of their heads with their idiot loop logic justifying why its all right to speak gibberish:

"well if my audience really cared to learn the material they'd take the initiative to go learn themselves."

Step aside old porky piggy dorks, and let the world be an educated one unhindered.

Last edited by studpenguin; 01-19-2004 at 06:09 PM.
 
Old 01-19-2004, 07:10 AM   #990
lefticy
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the only thing that i can see that linux needs is a more transparent installation for hardware .. and software; lindows is on the right track

if you install a hardware component you have no way of knowing if it was installed properly.

just my two cents worth..

as for the future of linux and MS .. MS had better go opensource .. look at this way; who is going to see better one man with two eyes or 200 men with one eye .. i will take the 200 .. linux is much better and i learn more everyday..
 
  


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