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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-06-2003, 05:29 PM   #841
ricdave
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<<< As for companies writing drivers for Linux. I'm not
really happy with that. I'd rather have them either
give their code to the kernel maintainers and make
it GPL'ed >>>

Not very likely to do either if it doesn't sell product

<<< I want to go out there and buy any spark-plug
and stick it in my car without having to check
whether it works or not? >>>

Well at least you know for sure that your car does take spark plugs, or does it?. More that half of them, anyway. Almost a certainty that a new class of hardware will NOT function in Linux.

<<< This isn't contradicting what I say... People here want
"Linux to be easier" - they're not asking the supplier
of their specific distro to clean stuff up after or for them. >>>

Putting rather a fine point on it, don't you think. Joe Six-Pack just wants to plug it in and have it work, play his games, write letters or recipes and browse the internet. He wants neat, new software (to him) to download and install by clicking on a few buttons. He really doesn't care, nor should he have to, whether the ease is the result of Linux's efforts or the distributor's efforts as long as the end result is the same.

<<< Same again - I said that the people who want all
this will have to pay. >>>

Read about 5 or 6 posts back and I think you will see that that is addressed. Look, Tink, IT pros, Comp. Sc. graduates, and back yard mechanics who love to get under the hood and get their hands dirty will always have Slack, Chainsaw, Debian, Gentoo, Sorceror. Rock, Lunatix, JB, Dettu, Core, Crux, and LFS (yes, tried 'em all). I know that there are probably others of their ilk, and I realize that these are a lot of fun for the hard core enthusiast. However, most of the people coming to Linux today are not enthusiasts. Nor do they have the background knowledge to function outside of the GUI. I think that explains the success of Mandrake, Red Hat, SuSE, SOT, Ice Pack, Elx, Alt, Arch, Turbo, Stampede, Xandros, Lindows, and Lycoris (yep, tried these, too) for the rest of us.

I think that where we differ, Tink, is that I see the immense value of both groups as well as the compelling need to cater to the needs, desires, and yes, the whims of both groups. Joe Six-Pack will be instrumental in driving the need for device drivers and Linux ports for popular software. I think you will concede that is a plus-plus, or at least a plus for the slack, etc., crowd.
The enthusiasts constantly push the limits of Linux and have been and will continue to be crucially important in the development of Linux. A definite plus for us Joe Six-Packs.
 
Old 12-07-2003, 12:27 AM   #842
cseanburns
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Definitely, that's the power of linux, that it is versatile, flexible. That it can suit and will better suit as time passes the needs of all kinds of people and it will be able to do it efficiently and cleanly. It should be broad like that. It should be able to have appeal to the enthusiasts as well as to the common user. If it doesn't it's not going to succeed. OS/2 is reckoned to be a nice os, but where is it---just IT's and businesses use it mostly, from what I understand. I hope that doesn't happen to linux. Like I said before, I may never get more involved in the mechanics of linux beyond the GUI and Mandrake, but what's the problem with that? I spend 14 hours a day cooking. And I prefer Linux. But time allows me only so much involvement with it. So am I supposed to use M$ because I'm not able to be a programmer? Because my machine's just a mainstream piece of crap, I'm supposed to use M$? Because I have chosen a different life that takes a lot of my time, I'm supposed to use M$? Freaking relax people. Ever see a hearse towing a uhaul? It's a good fight, for Linux that is--open source is a great and awesome cause, but just relax and be excited that Linux can appeal to a lot of people and that some distros will make it easy for some common end users and some distros will be more exciting for the more extreme users. I may know a little bit about cars and I may have to pass driving tests and such, but that doesn't mean I have to be able to know how to change my transmission. It would be wonderful and exciting and thrilling if I could, but it's nice also that it's not necessary. There are all kinds of people out here.

Last edited by cseanburns; 12-07-2003 at 03:57 AM.
 
Old 12-07-2003, 07:10 PM   #843
donjuan
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Opinion...

I'm just getting to know linux... I'm a newbie.

But i don't think linux should be made easier. Thats the reason for not using Windows.... control.
If you try to make linux idiot-proof, your going the same dirrection as mainstream OS's.
 
Old 12-08-2003, 12:11 AM   #844
ricdave
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<<< But i don't think linux should be made easier. Thats the reason for not using Windows.... control.
If you try to make linux idiot-proof, your going the same dirrection as mainstream OS's. >>>

And about time, too. Read my previous post, about 8 or 9 back.
 
Old 12-08-2003, 04:03 AM   #845
cseanburns
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<<<But i don't think linux should be made easier. Thats the reason for not using Windows.... control.
If you try to make linux idiot-proof, your going the same direction as mainstream OS's.>>>

I don't think so. First linux is open source. Which means it's freely distributed. Which means instead of one M$ like corporation controlling Linux, there are about 200+ distros with different feels, flavors, and what have you. Or, if you were good enough, you could just make your own distro. With that kind of flexibility, freedom, you can make or have or should have linux whatever way you want, easier or more involved. Like I said before, there are all kinds of people out there. Just because some of them don't want to have anything to do with computers but have to deal with them on occasion for work or whatever, does that mean they have to use M$? Or if there are people out there with lots of work to do, lots of family stuff to take care of, but they don't like M$ or their ethics or their OS, yet they don't have the time to get into tar-ing and yadayadayada, should they have to settle for M$---no, let em click n run or whatever.

You may use linux because you like to have more control over your system. I may use it for similar reasons. We both may use it because we don't like M$, it's OS, its ethics, its greed. But if I want my 80 year old grandmother, who's had a stroke, who barely knows how to use a mouse, to use Linux, because she does want to use a computer, and she's interested in doing so, and it's good excersice for her failing brain, then I'm going to get her on a lindows machine. And what is wrong with that? You can use slackware, debian, or whatever distro out there that's nice and engaging, but there's nothing wrong if someone wants to write a version of linux that is easy for some people to use without getting their hands dirty. It's part of the whole FREEDOM thing!!!
 
Old 12-08-2003, 09:47 AM   #846
bruno buys
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This thread is starting to repete itself. I suggest people posting now read it backward before posting.


And, for the record, I don't see any technical reason why "making it easier" implies necessarily in "making it more flawed". It can be made.

Last edited by bruno buys; 12-08-2003 at 10:04 AM.
 
Old 12-08-2003, 02:20 PM   #847
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by bruno buys
This thread is starting to repete itself. I suggest people posting now read it backward before posting.
Funny you should say that, I thought exactly that
when you first posted to it in October ;)


Quote:
And, for the record, I don't see any technical reason why "making it easier" implies necessarily in "making it more flawed". It can be made.
How much programming have you done, how
many exceptions do you usually handle? With
error checking and some decent logging even
my most basic installation scripts easily exceed
90K ... and they only cover the most likely problems
to occur because I have to admit that I can't
anticipate every possible constellation, and
I don't think that this is a problem of me being
extraordinarily thick but something that is inherent
in how PC hardware is made/setup, that it relates
to the modularity of the PC hardware. On a Mac
or other proprietary hardware things are easier
because the cases are limited by design.

I do firmly believe that speed & robustness
are not exactly mutually exclusive to simplicity,
but that they are related in a way that makes
the first decrease as the latter increases.



Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 12-08-2003, 04:34 PM   #848
Joolz34
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Hi, as most of you can see from my post count Im a newb At least as far as linux is concerned. Admittedly I also havent read through all of this thread, I got to about page 12 or something and as its almost midnight here I didnt want to keep reading into the night

I do have a couple of comments about the 'ease of use' of Linux though. First of all as many people are saying, I have no problem doing my own research, and finding my own answers. I like beating problems, and I usually cant rest until I do.

As far as linux is concerned, I think compared to a couple of years back, the install of some of the more popular distros (Ive tried Redhat from versions 8 up, Suse from 8 up and Lycoris) couldnt be easier. With all of those distros Ive mentioned I honestly cant complain about the installation.

What mainly bothers me though are the problems to install things. For example lets say I want to install something that will fake an NTLM call to a windows proxy. After doing some digging on the web I find a program that seems to do what I want. I download it, and get a .tar. Ok so now what do I do with that? (Newbie remember ). Bit more digging on google find the answer, put the command in and extract the file. Get a bunch more of files. Of course theres no setup.exe So I go through the readmes, find out about make install, and finally get the program to start installing...
Half way through the install it fails because a module it needs isnt there, or a file, whatever. Ok no problem, progs fail on other OSes too because of dlls and so on.
More digging, find the relevant dependancies, find out how to run them (rpm files this time), start installing, also fail because of a missing dependancy. This is where it starts to get frustrating, and where Id like to ask those of you who put packages together to please put the dependacies or a list of them on your websites too! argh!
More digging, finally get everything installed and working. Program runs, so now I have to go read through the manual and mess with an eight page .conf file....

Now as I said before I like fighting problems, and sometimes after installing a program and making it work, going through a situation like above, I get a sense of satisfaction at the end of it, that I learnt something.

Other times though, when I have 30 mins and I need to desperately check something, or grab something off the net its a real pain in the neck.

I started with computers at age 9 with a vic20, then went to a c64 and then to an amiga 500, then an amiga 1200. It wasnt until I went to college that I was forced into using pcs, and in those days editing a batch file for 2 hours to make a program install was something reminiscent of the situation with linux now. I think linux needs to pick up a tip from windows here. At the moment in windows sure I can do the dumb install (just keep clicking next), but with a lot of programs I can set up unattended installs, or set up scripts to install only the components etc I want. Thats something Id like to see in linux, so when I need to be quick, and dont need to worry too much about the program, I can do the dumb install.


I dont think Linux needs to be dumbed down in the sense of having wizards everywhere, it can stay as it is, just it would be nice if it was easier to install things At least for me. A start would be listing the other files your program needs to run, so I can find out if I have them or not. Another might be a package like wininstall which would manage the installation and grab the packages for me that I didnt have. At the start I would enter the name of the install file into a dialogue box and it would check for me (if something like this exists, please tell me!), but otherwise would leave the rpm files etc as they are for the 'hardcore' to install anyway they choose.

At the moment on my desk Im running Linux (Suse 9) and another box with windows XP, and although Id like to move to linux, and Im enjoying learning, it will stay that way until either I learn to set up programs and configure them in record under linux, or some method comes out to improve things.

Anyway end of rant - sorry if some of you went to sleep, and Im off to plough through the squid manual and try to make it work with the NT proxy again....

Joolz34

Last edited by Joolz34; 12-08-2003 at 04:37 PM.
 
Old 12-08-2003, 05:09 PM   #849
slakmagik
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Well, SuSE is basically designed for SuSE rpm's as far as I know, and not compiling. And even there, you get issues, I know. But your problem (and many people's problem) isn't 'Linux' but their distro. I installed Gentoo the other day and had a basic console. I wanted a browser, so I did 'emerge w3m'. *wham* I had an entire X windows system and much more. ('emerge -p' is your friend.) Debian's apt-get makes a pretty easy binary install and Gentoo's emerge makes a pretty easy compile (of sorts). Conversely, while Slackware may now have swaret and 'installpkg' is pretty easy, Slack is pretty much designed to compile from source by hand. I have certainly had problems like you describe, but not very often. It does maybe take tracking down a lib once in awhile and does take massive efforts at other times, but generally, it's easy.

'Linux' has no real installation issues. Again, Debian has a nifty package installer but a terrible OS installer - same Linux, same distro - but installing the distro on the box and apps on the distro are quite different. Mandrake installs as easy as can be. I like Slack's install. It varies.

And, yeah, most people install their distro more than once and stick all kinds of apps on it. But, ideally, you'd only install it once and it *comes* with a zillion apps. Most people seem to accept a Gnome *and* KDE install by default and these IDE's *each* try to be a nearly-complete software package - they don't come with crap like notepad, but with full tilt heavy duty apps (and notepad). So many people could get by without ever adding anything to the system, if they weren't the 'my way' sort.

(I can find all sorts of stuff to bitch at Linux about, but I'm just saying I don't think that's a real big one. Though, true, each app usually has a homepage and, assuming a default 'linux'/'coreutils'/'gcc'/'xfree'/blahblah sort of install, they could then list their other dependencies. Some do; some don't. But what is a standard install? Where do you stop? Dependencies: this package requires a bootloader, a Linux kernel, init, login, getty.... )
 
Old 12-08-2003, 08:44 PM   #850
bruno buys
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Hi tinkster,

"I do firmly believe that speed & robustness
are not exactly mutually exclusive to simplicity,
but that they are related in a way that makes
the first decrease as the latter increases."

If there's really a tradeoff between performance and simplicity, let people do the choice. Isn't linux about it, choice? Besides, that's not the point. If you, as a programmer and long time user knows how and where to find your config files to edit and prefers to edit with your text editor, great. If a newbie can't (yet) do that, and has to have a mouse click menu to open a GUI app to edit the exactly same file, great as well.

Again, all this has already been said. I admit, I didn't read the entire ~850 posts of this thread. But I did read the first one and tried to read since my first. My pain is a feeling that the topic can't move forward, instead it's moving in circles.
 
Old 12-09-2003, 02:55 AM   #851
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by bruno buys
... I admit, I didn't read the entire ~850 posts of this thread. ... My pain is a feeling that the topic can't move forward, instead it's moving in circles.
Thus you name cause and effect .
 
Old 12-09-2003, 06:48 PM   #852
smcoptyltd
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Yesterday's story.

I went to install for an architect Win XP' system for his Autocad.
Than he wanted me to transfer all his stuff from old machine to new one. Iíve done his emails, documents, complete ACAD 2002 folder and asked for his original CD.
He had it at home!

All he knew about computer is to start damned thing, (He has ADSL) How to browse on net and start and work in AutoCad. No idea how to install ANTHING in Windows XP or any OS!

Iíve said to him about learning a bit about computerí and their OSís.

He said that he has no time and will to learn and for this purpose he has a computer technician.

He is prepared to pay for the service in his machine to rather do his job and make some serious money by improving his skills as an architect than a computer fan.

He earns about $100 per hour. He has a friend, the lawyer who makes even more and has a similar attitude towards learning computers.

My accountant is the same. They want to pay me for their lack of knowledge.
They have not idea what BIOS is and they donít want to know.

They are professionals.

The most pro community is the same and sometimes one or two in few hundreds is skilled in Windows or has general computer knowledge.

I view of that very common attitiude Linux will be never popular for this the most influential and most money spending group.

With these Nvidia installations and editing scripts Linux could be used in every government department on every desktop.

But...he will seldom get to home.

Iím a convert into Linux but so far I can see no chances for mass exodus from M$ to Linux. Bill Gates may sleep well.

Even if in every gov dept will be on desktop, with these Nvidia dramas and config dramas Linux will be a fun OS, mere a technician toy.

Thatís it!

It can idle like MAC for MANY, MANY years.

People donít have time for this!
Iíve read posts about Nvidia driver installation and Iím a bit to busy right now to sacrifice several hours to install Nvidia drivers.

I will sooner or later but also I will try some other distro where these things maybe easier.
Maybe Lindows or other. Iím doing nothing on Linux so, while installation of it is just 12 minutes, I may d/load some other distro and try it if is easier.

And when I will find a simple and fast way of installing Linux and drivers and programs on it, I will be able to convince some my friends and customers to try Linux.

Professionals will never accept it as is.

PeaceÖ
 
Old 12-09-2003, 07:18 PM   #853
icemncmth
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I work on computers and charge $100 per hour, $35 for a service fee...min of one hour...I walk in the door and it is $135. I don't have my MCSE or A+ I am the guy who walks in with a tool box and my great looks! Yesterday I walked into a clients office (lawyer) and he started complaining about my rate. I didn't say anything..just picked up my tools and started walking towards the door. He asked me where I was going and I said ...." home" and I started walking out the door. He asked me to stop and I turned and told him it would be $150 bucks an hour because he hurt my feelings. ...He said a few choice words and asked me to help him out. I then asked him what his rate was and he said he charges $250. I said cool...than you can afford me because I just started charging you $225 an hour. I think his heart stopped...

I ended up working on his system for an hour. He runs a token ring and one of his computers was having problems and bringing down the whole system. His biggest problem is that he is too much of a tight a-- to update his system. He runs....Window...3.1...95..98..98se...NT..2000...XP Pro...all on the same system. But the thing that makes me smile when I walk into his IS office is the VA linux box.

He may not be interested in learning how to operate his system but I make his wallet hurt when I walk in the door. I also hear him complain about the 125 computers he has and all the MS fees he has to pay. It won't be long before people like him switch. He is on the verge and when he tells me to make the switch I will...and he doesn't care what his employees think...all he says is .....I don't hear them complain when the pick up their paycheck!
 
Old 12-09-2003, 07:39 PM   #854
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by smcoptyltd
He earns about $100 per hour. He has a friend, the lawyer who makes even more and has a similar attitude towards learning computers.

My accountant is the same. They want to pay me for their lack of knowledge.
They have not idea what BIOS is and they donít want to know.

They are professionals.
I don't get your point. What's the difference between
a Linux install and a Windows install to someone who
calls a technician in anyway? Why not install Linux for
him and be done with it?



Cheers,
Tink

P.S.: No offense meant, but your posts are somewhat
incoherent, and your English sounds even weirder
than mine :) May I ask what nationality you are?
 
Old 12-10-2003, 04:08 AM   #855
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinkster
... No offense meant, but your posts are somewhat
incoherent ...
As an aside, that's probably what happens when he tries to restart this faltering thread with the reiteration of his earlier point of view without answering your statements.

No offense meant, either.
 
  


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