Make Linux easier for the general population! Please.

perry · 11-03-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tinkster
flame-fodder on

And the users of those very distros then
come running, tears and snot all over:
"'My such-and-such-tool' didn't do what
it should!" and have no idea where to even
start looking, because they (like users of
windows) are kept stupid.

No offense meant :}

good point and no offense taken

i just had to figure out how to get back my xserver this evening. one single search on the internet gave me a 200 page document called the "Linux Newbie Guide". well put together and while it did not have the final solution that i came up with, it was very informative and pointed me into the right direction

however, if it wasn't for the wonderful wonderful fonts and front end that mandrake is providing me with today, i'd be hard pressed to be using a text only linux

just my

worth

- perry

Tinkster · 11-03-2003, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perry
however, if it wasn't for the wonderful wonderful fonts and front end that mandrake is providing me with today, i'd be hard pressed to be using a text only linux

Well, I like my tools like gimp, I do appreciate
being able to view the pix from my digi-cam,
and these days most websites are pretty much
unusable without a GUI browser. But I love
being able to do stuff on the command-line.

I love my plain-text mails, and my "snippets"
of information that are stored in 127-bit ASCII
so I can do things to them with my beloved
CLI tools. Some things are only possible from
the CLI ... like this:

Quote:

.... if you go through the
source tree you'll find 2096 java files
with 16,108,689 bytes, and 13,515 C++
files with a grand total of 184,924,743 bytes,
with an additional 1220 C-files adding up
to 14,318,825 bytes.

Code:

cd /usr/src/oo_1.1_src
find -iname "*.java" -exec ls -l {} \; | awk '{bytes += $5 ; files += 1  }; END { print "Bytes total is", bytes ," in ", files ," files"} '
find -iname "*.?xx" -exec ls -l {} \; | awk '{bytes += $5 ; files += 1  }; END { print "Bytes total is", bytes ," in ", files ," files"} '
find -iname "*.[ch]" -exec ls -l {} \; | awk '{bytes += $5 ; files += 1  }; END { print "Bytes total is", bytes ," in ", files ," files"} '

Retrieving that kind of information is pretty
much impossible in any kind of existing GUI
tool, and if somebody built that ability into
konqueror (or winDOHs explorer) it would
be another feature that makes the thing more
bloated, and it's a feature that 99% of the
users would never actually touch ;)

Linux/Unix on the other hand have these
marvelous little tools, that do ONE thing,
do that well, and you just chain them together
through pipes on the command-line. :)

Cheers,
Tink

nightjar · 11-03-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Dorman
I agree,, make it easier. My problem is with downloads from the web, with Windows it is much easier to download and install.

Download .rpm
Its are too easy to install and uninstall.

You can manage its as in windoze.

cpt.anarchy · 11-03-2003, 06:40 PM

I just read the initial post and not many others. But the fact is if Linux is ever going to replace microshit it's going to still have to work on making it easier to install. I'd say I'm fairly decent with computers and problem solving in relation to the vast majority of computer users and I had a problem installing my network card and could not get it to work with linux. So now I'm getting rid of linux and going back to windoz.
I know friends who had no problems and all their shit worked fine, but others that it did take a bit of playing with to get to work...myself I had to quit after a month of playing around with it and trying to get help with the card.

lectraplayer · 11-03-2003, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmillard
Have you looked at Lindows?

Yes, and I hate it. It appears to be a Linux with a Windows aliased filesystem on it.

Quote:

Originally posted by cpt.anarchy
I just read the initial post and not many others. But the fact is if Linux is ever going to replace microshit it's going to still have to work on making it easier to install. I'd say I'm fairly decent with computers and problem solving in relation to the vast majority of computer users and I had a problem installing my network card and could not get it to work with linux. So now I'm getting rid of linux and going back to windoz.
I know friends who had no problems and all their shit worked fine, but others that it did take a bit of playing with to get to work...myself I had to quit after a month of playing around with it and trying to get help with the card.

I don't know what you were talking about. Both RedHat and Mandrake have proven themselves very easy to install for me. Ten times easier for RedHat and foolproof for Mandrake. Slackware, SuSE, and FreeBSD, maybe. I haven't tried any of those, but I have heard they are a pain in the arse to get set up. If you say Linux is hard to install, I'd say try RedHat or Mandrake.

Tinkster · 11-03-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cpt.anarchy
But the fact is if Linux is ever going to replace microshit it's going to still have to work on making it easier to install.

I still hope that people might be able to think.
But I've always been an optimist.

Quote:

I'd say I'm fairly decent with computers and problem solving in relation to the vast majority of computer users

Does that mean that besides re-boot and
re-install you can use regedit and know how
to search the MS knowledge base?

Quote:

and I had a problem installing my network card and could not get it to work with linux. So now I'm getting rid of linux and going back to windoz.

Sweet ... for me it was the other way round.
Windows NEVER worked for me, not since
version 2 (Yeah, I've actually seen that
black&white thing). And the integration of
XP into my existing network was impossible.
Installed Slack, was up and surfing in 45 minutes.

Quote:

Originally posted by cpt.anarchy in this thread
I dled rp-pppoe-3.5-1.src.rpm and typed in the first command as root (rpm --rebuild rp-pppoe-3.5-1.src.rpm) and it said no such file or directory. ....arg

Mate, the Roaring penguin site explicitly tells you
NOT to use the rpm's if you're not running RedHat.
It explicitly says they DON'T work with Mandrake.

Quote:

http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/rp-pppoe/#req
Download

The software is available in a number of formats. Please note that the RPM's are Red Hat-specific; other distributions such as Mandrake have changed the locations of some executables. For non-Red Hat distributions, we recommend rebuilding the RPM as detailed below.

We'll repeat it because many people ignore the previous paragraph:

The binary RPM's will not work on Mandrake, and probably won't work on non-Red Hat systems. Use the source for those systems

Quote:

I know friends who had no problems and all their shit worked fine, but others that it did take a bit of playing with to get to work...myself I had to quit after a month of playing around with it and trying to get help with the card.
:(

Oh well, such is life... a MicroSlave for ever...

Cheers,
Tink

estiedi · 11-04-2003, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmckeown
The worst thing in Linux for me is Root/User complications. If I run as a user I probably have to give root password dozens of time s a day, but worse when I've been editing a file and then realise I can't save it as I'm only a user. Recently I discovered suid, which helped me setup "apm -s" on my mum's PC without having to tell her root password. And sudo looks useful. But when I read about the rationale for root/user writeres seem to assume there is more than one user on the machine. This is never true for me. LInux doesn't seem to have made the adjustment to the single-user desktop/laptop, the people who make distros (except Lindows) assume a multi-user machine. During install there should be a basic option - is this a single-user system and if so it should either run as root only , or be setup with one user that can edit web stuff at /var/www (local test before upload) and config files under /etc and so that user is never faced with - you cannot edit this webpage or config file, and never has to give another password just to configure the system.

regards,
John

Giving root access to everything/everybody would be about the dumbest thing to do. (I won't discuss security here, 'cos there are plenty of forums about that). Even Windows doesn't do that anymore AFAIK.
I admit that sometimes it can be annoying and it happens to me as well that I edit a file and notice that I need root acces when I try to save. What I do then, is save the file under another name, log in as root and move the file.

estiedi · 11-04-2003, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lostman
I don't get it. If you install Mandrake 9.1 and go with KDE, it's just like windows. Most of the programs are installed already. What is so hard? The hard stuff involves things you could never do in Windows. So if your just looking for an internet station or office suite, install it and leave it alone!

Well said!
BTW, if your using Windows, it's easy as long as you _do_ easy stuff. Once you get to the advanced thingies, it gets all complicated and confusing. You need to know all the workarounds for the bugs in their stupid wizard things. Talking in experience here, adding a PC to a Windows domain can be a real nightmare.
Naah, I'd rather have have a text file and a good manual. It might take a bit more time the first time, but at least you know what you're doing.

estiedi · 11-04-2003, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tinkster
I still hope that people might be able to think.
But I've always been an optimist.

80 % of the people are stupid and/or lazy. This is a fact.
That's why Microsofts will always be around. I propose that we let them go their way and that we walk ours. It shouldn't be a matter of who wins. As long as we are happy using Linux like WE want it and they are happy with their Windows, everybody is happy. What a wonderful world!

perry · 11-04-2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by estiedi
80 % of the people are stupid and/or lazy. This is a fact.
That's why Microsofts will always be around. I propose that we let them go their way and that we walk ours. It shouldn't be a matter of who wins. As long as we are happy using Linux like WE want it and they are happy with their Windows, everybody is happy. What a wonderful world!

excellent point of view

however i need to remind myself of that everyday

and thank god for linux

- perry

.300WSM · 11-04-2003, 08:42 AM

I think the problem here is that the people who are having trouble with Linux are the same people who are trying to use it as a desktop system and the people swearing by it have used it for years as a server system.

From what I have read (or can remember) the desktop side of Linux is fairly new and can have problems, most people are experiencing this. Older users can work around this, while use newbies are stuck trying to learn new commands and system structure just to get it to work like windows.

Give it another year or 2 and it will be a desktop OS to rival Windows.

If not it will still be a better network OS by a long mile.

Dale Dorman · 11-04-2003, 08:47 AM

Well ... I was hoping for some information/help possibly here but I can see that certain people have the attitude that I should not even ask or mention that I am new to Linux .. using it very seldom since I am not yet comfortable/knowledgeable with it. In regard to those certain few, you can kiss my a--. NOW onto the post/reply, this particular machine does have Red Hat on it 8.0 in fact, I also have another one that has 9.0 on for tinkering purposes, with both when I download from the web it gives me a window that basically asks what I want to do with it "open with application" or "save to disk". Since I have no idea about the application one I save to disk with the thought of later installing same. So far this has not been the case. In all fairness, however this one particular program download was Java VM, can't remember the specific one right off the top. I downloaded it opened it, installed it (I think) but I can not find it nor use it for the purpose I wanted it for. As I said earlier all I ask for is some help, I don't need, want, nor warrant a lecture. I can get that from print media. In regards to installation problems (I saw a lot of posts to that end), I have Red Hat 8.0 and Mandrake 9.0 installed permanently. I have Red Hat 9.0 on a third machine to see how it is. I also have Mandrake 9.1, which I installed but for some unknown reason it would only install from the textual version, it would not install with the GUI. It is also for a later installation. So know there you have it, information an help are what I wanted, attitude an critics need not reply.

perry · 11-04-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tinkster

Linux/Unix on the other hand have these
marvelous little tools, that do ONE thing,
do that well, and you just chain them together
through pipes on the command-line.

Cheers,
Tink

thanks for your posting tink, not only was it informative but you just introduced me to awk and a bunch of other goodies that i know i should know like the back of my hand

seriously, thanks for the posting

- perry

Blackrose1 · 11-04-2003, 09:50 AM

Moving from MS to Linux is like moving from a small town (you don't have to think much about living in a small town, you KNOW where everything is, and you KNOW everyone.) to a big city, the distro you use is your new neighborhood, and when something in your distro doesn't work you have to learn where to find the municipal services (i.e. police, fire, utilities, or in this case upgrades and support) And like a lot of really big cities, you HAVE to know where you're going to know where you're going!
In other words, you have to have a clue as to what you need to get to what you want. That's really hard if you're not a serious tech head. Now I love Linux, and for the most part RH8 is cool. However, it's really fustrating to spend 3 hours trying to install a new printer and still not get any results! Especially after one has installed a new hard drive, sound card, video card, and usb card without difficulty!

lethalinjection · 11-04-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lostman
I don't get it. If you install Mandrake 9.1 and go with KDE, it's just like windows. Most of the programs are installed already. What is so hard? The hard stuff involves things you could never do in Windows. So if your just looking for an internet station or office suite, install it and leave it alone!

the hard part for most users is getting to grips with the command line and installing some hardware which is supported but for some reason is made an absolute BITCH to install, i've counted many threads here of users not being to get into startx after installing an ATI driver.
The other problem is hardware compatibility, for me sound cards, but that's the company's faults.