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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-22-2003, 12:17 AM   #421
megaspaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by linuxgamer
Boy it would be nice to go to nvidia or any driver site,
download the driver and install it in less than 2 minutes
like I do on XP Pro.

But noooooo, on Linux I have to read an install file,
recompile the kernal and hope that I dont fubar my machine.
This is after several hours of trying to figure out how to
update my Linux video driver.
i'm sorry, but how does linux have anything to do with this? you want better, easier to install drivers, complain to the vendors. if you download a new version of nvidia drivers for windows and it hoses your system, do you say frickin' windows? no, you say these nvidia drivers XXXX blow chunks, now don't you? ms and linux have nothing to do with providing drivers for lots of different hardware. that's normally the vendor's job like with video cards.

Last edited by megaspaz; 10-22-2003 at 12:19 AM.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 12:35 AM   #422
slakmagik
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Quote:
Originally posted by megaspaz
i'm sorry, but how does linux have anything to do with this? you want better, easier to install drivers, complain to the vendors. if you download a new version of nvidia drivers for windows and it hoses your system, do you say frickin' windows? no, you say these nvidia drivers XXXX blow chunks, now don't you? ms and linux have nothing to do with providing drivers for lots of different hardware. that's normally the vendor's job like with video cards.
Yeah, I'll grant that much. It is a valid complaint against Linux in that that's what you have to deal with if you're trying to use Linux, but it's not Linux's fault. That anything works *at all* regarding hardware support is a bonus from hackers hacking drivers for you. MS doesn't do that. That you can get drivers from the equipment manufacturers is a credit to the manufacturers. If Linux is missing hardware support, it's the manufacturers who are dropping the ball, though hackers *could* be adding it in anyway. That said, my nVidia drivers *did* install as easy I could ask. Just whoozits.sh and bang. So nVidia and Linux have the capability to do that. Blame your distro or your install if it didn't go like that and blame the OEM if they don't provide stuff like that.

It's the software internals about Linux and configuring them that drive me up a wall. Flipside of that is that if I can't do something in Windows I just shrug and say "Well, Windows won't let me." Half my frustration with Linux comes from the fact that if I want a blue pixel on my red desktop at 344x423 then I expect to be able to put a freaking blue pixel there.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 06:36 AM   #423
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by unholy ... By this I mean that the desktops need to incorporate better installation managment. I'm not speaking of the installation of linux itself, I'm talking about the software installation. Whether this lies with purely the software writers, or also with the desktop environment I don't know. But I see software installation as the only gripe people have when trying to get them away from windows. ...
What you seem to want is a graphical installation tool for "./configure - make - make install" like Install Shield (?) in Windows, properly GPLed and so good that it will be used by all distributions?

Not a bad idea. Not bad at all, especially when combined with checkinstall and leaving the beloved old routines of "./configure - make - make install" untouched for the nerds.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 06:49 AM   #424
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by lectraplayer
... I do agree about the drivers though. I would like to see more drivers for my hardware that were written by Intel, Linksys, Netgear, HP, or whoever made my hardware (or slapped their logo on it. ...
Look also here ...
 
Old 10-22-2003, 09:49 AM   #425
misophist
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Thanks JZL24OI-U, sounds good, looks good. Post a message if any one ever does this for graphics drivers.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 10:08 AM   #426
BOFH2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by misophist
M$ makes all the decisions ahead of time so you can't get at the innards of the machine.
No, what you actually mean is "You don't have to fuck about with the innards of the machine."
 
Old 10-22-2003, 11:30 AM   #427
unholy
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lol BOFH2003 It's true.

JZL240 - That looks great. I'll give it a try.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 12:30 PM   #428
tcaptain
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Quote:
Originally posted by BOFH2003
No, what you actually mean is "You don't have to fsck about with the innards of the machine."
Well maybe its so you don't have to...but I hate that the choice is made for me...

Personally I like tinkering and linux allows me to tinker (or screw things up to be honest...but that's my perogative and a learning experience).

I personally do not like choice being taken away from me. With linux, I can do whatever I want...with M$ I *have* to do what THEY want
 
Old 10-22-2003, 12:44 PM   #429
BOFH2003
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No, you're missing my point. Only "noobs" and inexperienced users actually have a problem doing what they want with Windows. It doesn't "take your choice away" - it GIVES you the choice as to whether or not to have things done for you, or do them yourselves.

Just because you can't recompile the kernel doesn't mean that you don't have any choice. The majority of Windows services can be switched off with nothing more than a quick visit to Administrative Tools > Services - this will bring the process count down from around 30-40 to under 15.

Nearly all GUI-based tasks can be performed from the command line; network/service-related commands can be manipulated using the "net" command; ie, "net start Alerter", would start the Alerter service.

The registry offers more configuration options than EVER seen before in the Linux dotfiles, and is a central resource where almost every aspect of Windows can be adjusted and tweaked.

Of course, if you want to get even messier with your OS, you can write C code which hooks into Windows' low-level APIs, and do some really tricky stuff, la WindowBlinds, WindowFX, etc.

Windows doesn't take away your ability to do things the hard way; it OFFERS you the choice to do things the easy, OR the hard way.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 02:45 PM   #430
linuxgamer
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so true BOFH2003
...so true
 
Old 10-22-2003, 03:05 PM   #431
k.van.hagen
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Smile Only my humble opinion.

Okay,

It is my opinion that Linux may not be as hard/difficult as it may seem if we were not all brainwashed by M$...
I recognized this once I started working more often with Linux. The filesystem for instance I found very hard to understand, but once the basic logic got through to me, I find it a lot nicer than the crappy C, D, E, F, etc.. etc.. Having problems after installing a new drive it being assigned a drive letter later than your cd

The way I see it Linux is all about freedom of choice, not blindly trusting some programmer's logic, but being able to make you own for a signifficantly larger part.

I understand that reading manuals, README's e.g. are not always the nicest things to do, but since 9 out of 10 times this is not nessecary for M$ you stop thinking about what you're actually doing, and this stagnates the general learningcurve.

Bye!
 
Old 10-22-2003, 03:47 PM   #432
misophist
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BOFH2003 isn't exactly wrong. Let me ask him though, what his response is to the M$ EULA and 'trusted computing'.
 
Old 10-22-2003, 04:29 PM   #433
BOFH2003
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The MS EULA? Well, I've never heard of a single case where the EULA has been enforced on individuals to any extent past "don't make pirate copies of this" - EULAs mainly apply to large corporations, which have legal divisions to deal with any possible breaches.

MS don't actually expect you to read all 27 pages of the Windows Server 2003 EULA, lol. And as far as Trustworthy Computing goes, it's an option which will protect software developers' intellectual property. If you had written an application that was necessary for the day-to-day functioning of people's lives, such as WinZIP or WinRAR, what would your views be on something which would ensure people bought your software rather than stealing it?
 
Old 10-22-2003, 05:09 PM   #434
icemncmth
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Red face

I think what people need to look at is the fact that PC's have only been around since the early 80's. I started off with a Trash 80 then worked over to a Apple then back to a Compac and so on. I also started off in computer graphics in College and we worked on a Cray SC. Now with that said ....Look at the age of the average computer buyer. Not the kids at home but the person who pays out the cash for the thing. Most of those people are 40's+. These people make up the 98% who buy Microsoft stuff. (this includes me) Now...stay with me... out of these people they have been using the GUI style system since it started. They are not use to typing in commands. Even the ones who know DOS left DOS behind because of the vision of a promise land that lets you point and click instead of typing. At the time this promise land was full of hopes and dreams little did we know that the Devil (Bill Gates) was a great business man and killed off any other OS that he came across. Now for those of you who are too young to know about different OS types, take a look on the web and see how many OS types have come and gone since Microsoft became the big boy on the block. With that said ....Apple is the only viable OS that is plug-n-play, and point and click. Linux is fast catching up but think back 5 years and tell me how easy it would be for a newbie into the computer world to install Linux on a system. I am running Linux and XP on the same system. I use Linux for 99% of the things I do. My neighbor who is 5 has no problem with my system. He can navigate the XP side or the Linux side and not even give it a thought. The future of Linux is in that young boys eyes. The only way to take down Microsoft and put Linux on the map is to show the young public that they have a choice. The people who are my age made the choice of Microsoft and the only way Linux will take over is when "we" who made said choice are not the 98% who do. Microsoft has had 20+ yrs to lead us to the promise land and each year they take our money and laugh. Linux is a child it will only grow when "we" decide to support it. If you have Red Hat ...pay for it...same goes with Mandrake....Gentoo....Suse...the list is endless. Support the distro you use and maybe someday Hell will freeze over and Gates with it!
 
Old 10-22-2003, 06:31 PM   #435
misophist
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BOFH2003: You haven't been reading the news. EULA, DRM, and a couple of other things give M$ the capability and the legal right to look at your hard drive, to install software without your permission, and who knows what else. You may not have broken or even bent any laws but it's still a damned piece of effrontery. Windows Media Player, aside from being a pretty good piece of software is also spyware. The men who wrote the Constitution were mostly honest men but they still felt that privacy was a vital right. M$ doesn't. So. M$ isn't especially secure. M$ isn't ethical (by my standards). M$ isn't indespendable. Is that enough?
 
  


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