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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-05-2003, 07:04 AM   #271
gill1109
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I think the poll is weird. I am not a newbie. I do want there to be linux's with interview style install and setup. And thank heavens we do have such distros already and they are getting better month by month (making M$ more and more nervous). I also want linux's for hardcore geeks and nerds. So I don't know what to vote. I think it is great that there are easy to install linux's to give newbies a kickstart (but they should be recommended to have not too new, not too old, not too unusual hardware).

I enjoy playing with my system and finding out how it works and fixing things, and I like the operating system to be intelligently and creatively and aesthetically put together. I love Mac OS X and it inspires people to write great software too. Linux is slowly becoming mainstream and there will be more and more high quality commerical software written for it. But part of the fun is that there is so much good stuff written by us for us, for free. I don't like Windoze because though there is plenty to try to fix and make to work you never get the feel there is a beautiful plan behind how it works, unlike with linux or mac.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 09:00 AM   #272
Scruff
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Well put kev. I think distro's like Mandrake make it easier for n00bs to get started and decide if they want to use Linux at all, but if you really want to learn; distro's like Slack and Gentoo are the only way to go. Sure, Mandrake might have the same 'command line goodies' underneath, but who is really going to use them fully when they don't have to?

I know personally, I learned more in less than 30 days using Slack than I did in a year of Mandrake. Granted, during that year I prob only used Linux 30% of the time while I now use it 95% but I think the reason I use it so much now is because I'm really using Linux. Since starting with Slack, I have editied startup scripts, config files, X, compiled a kernel out of necessity for the 1st (and 20th ) time... I have got deep into my system to make it work the way I need it to, and I KNOW it is way less buggy than any of my Mandrake installs were. I couldn't get Flash to install becasue it kept saying I needed glib 2.2 or newer (something like that). Well, I have 2.3, so I edited the install file and removed the script that checks for that lib and bam, I got Flash. Wouldn't have thought of that before using Slack. I boot into Gnome using only like 75mb's of ram while Mandrake used like 130mb's at startup. Same as XP. Reason: too much crap running that you don't need. They do that in case the user does need something they won't have to bother themselves with trying to figure out how to make it happen.

In all fairness though, I am a true geek. I absolutely have to know how everything works and I'm known to break things for the sake of learning how to fix them. For those people that want an alternative to M$ but have no desire to learn what's behind the 'windows' then Mandrake etc is for them. Choice is the greatist thing about Linux

Last edited by Scruff; 10-05-2003 at 09:02 AM.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 10:29 AM   #273
snype
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when i first booted up linux i probably asked that question 1000's of times. BUT now I do realize that if you want things to be as easy as windows USE WINDOWS. Linux is not meant to be a better windows, its linux, an idea, a passion, and a community. I am flakey about this issue though I think that if they made it easier a lot more people would migrate but then it would become curropt just like M$ did. But linux is also a statement to some people... these are the people that piss me off. some people use linux cause they think that only the most hackerish people use it or because they hate gates. I have no problem with windows as an operating system or gates as a person. But i use linux because i like to think about things and have a challange and I would love to see the average user switch over to linux. I mean my grandma had a dell *web PC* and I saw she only checked email and browsed the web and within twenty minute of ownin the computer i switched her to mandrake. SHE ACTUALLY READ MAUALS! she was using the terminal so much and about two months later I saw she was able to install from source and etc. well enoguh about that.. once you guys beat my views to death and killl me in a rampage look at my post he he
 
Old 10-05-2003, 12:35 PM   #274
mike975
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Quote: 'I have no problem with windows as an operating system or gates as a person'.

That may or may not be true, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - What About Customer Choice??!!

Wouldn't everyone be apalled if you could only buy Ford automobiles. They maybe okay cars - but where would be the choice?

Distributions like SuSE, Lycoris, Mandrake and Red Hat are, to their inestimable credit, bringing chioce to the average computer user who may want a choice of products other than MS ones, for whatever reason. Maybe they may just prefer the look of alternative products over MS ones, maybe it's because they may prefer the way they work, maybe it's because they may be more reliable than MS products or tend to be less prone to malicious attack - but whatever the reason is there surely needs to be a choice in the market place.

What particular Linux distro you prefer is another matter. For someone like me who just wants a computer to do the everyday tasks without worrying about what is going on under the hood, SuSE, Lycoris, Mandrake and Red Hat will be just fine.

For the computer enthusiast then something more text based will be much more delightful. Whatever you want there will be a distro for you.

I have Lycoris DesktopLX. It's seems quite capable of doing anything almost all home users would want. It's certainly very easy to use - very smooth and cool. It certainly seems much more reliable than my old Windows system. It's not suffered those typical MS 'blue screens of death' and spurious lock-ups, and its not fallen over and gone corrupt like Windows has done on me twice before.

I am sure something like SuSE would do me just fine too. But if I were clever and wanted to do loads of command line stuff, it could still all be done in DesktopLX or SuSE, but I might also prefer to go for one of the other choices like Debian or Slackware if I was inclined towards 'development' rather than typical 'workstation' use.

So it's all about choice, choice and more choice please.

I would have thought that all the GNU/Linux enthusiasts who meet here would be spreading the word outside our little community to friends, colleagues and family that come the time to get a new computer there IS a choice out there and that a Linux distro could very well offer a better & more reliable alternative at much lower cost. They don't have to go Linux obviously, but the likes of SuSE and Lycoris are steadily releasing better and more user friendly products, and if they do switch we can welcome them to the fold!

That must surely be good for everyone. Those that do make the switch may also be enthusiasts, so impressed, that they go on to help the evolution of the system.

That's my view as a 'newbie' and as a consumer. Let me have a choice other than Ford. Introduce me to Chrysler, General Motors, Mercedes and Jaguar. I may still opt for Ford, but at least I can judge if there is a superior alternative out there!

Mike
 
Old 10-05-2003, 12:58 PM   #275
Anth3m
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Ask not what Linux can do for you, but what YOU can do for Linux!


Meh.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 01:47 PM   #276
tao2000
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Exclamation What linux is really like...

Everybody has their own view of how easy/hard linux is. It makes some entertaining reading
Here is how I see it...
Remember when you were 15? And girls were starting to look really really GOOD?
And you had no faint idea of how to go out and get one?
Sure, you could draw pictures of girls, or look at photos of girls, but deep down you knew it was going to be MUCH better to actually HAVE a girl...
Well linux is a bit like that. You want it. You NEED it. But you're just going to damn well have to buy bunch after bunch of roses for it, and wine and dine it, and learn how to sweet talk it, and maybe even then, not get it to put out for you.
But, hey, that's the fun of it! Keep your mind on how it DOES feel when you finally get it right
After six years of trying to figure out linux, I'm STILL a newbie!
 
Old 10-05-2003, 03:18 PM   #277
mike975
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Hi Tao 2000.

6 years of trying is fine if you like messing about with computers. But does anyone here want Linux to be brought to the masses, i.e. to compete with Microsoft products?

If it really took six years (or even six weeks) to make a Linux computer work, the public will NEVER take it seriously and it will never be generally adopted. It will be just regarded as troublesome geekery.

There are so many people in the Linux community slating MS, but if the Linux community do not want to offer the public a viable and useable alternative operating system then stop criticising Mr Gates' Microsoft Corporation and his Windows system, by referring to it as M$ and WindoZe.

On the other hand if we do want to continue to criticise Microsoft Corporation for producing Inadequate, Overpriced software, and for it's anti-competitive, anti-trust method of doing business we (you) must be prepared to admit that the Linux community must develop and offer the general public an excellent and far superior operating system wrapped up in a GUI that is Intuitive, easy to use, reliable and efficient.

If this cannot be appreciated then GNU/Linux for the desktop will forever be consigned to the dark and dingy ghetto of computer geeks.

Nothing wrong with computer geeks, I admire every last one, but show the world your finest achievements, admit that the world needs GNU/Linux all wrapped up in a wonderful GUI that Joe and Joanne Public can understand and use. If not - never utter a word against Mr Gates and Microsoft again, because they have brought a sophisticated and user-friendly interface to the world's public. It may be full of holes, but if you see that as bad practice then admit that Linux CAN and SHOULD offer THE alternative.
But don't expect that Mr and Mrs J Public will be prepared to spend days or weeks trying to make a PC scan a photograph or send and e-mail, they just won't and Windows will totally rule for ever more.

Selling millions of PC's to the public through WalMart and PC World all pre-loaded with a public-friendy Linux O.S. will not mean that your hobby is at an end, far from it, it would surely spawn 100's of wonderful software additions that you can spend your evenings and weekends playing with.

Linux Should Be For Everyone - from Geeks to Greeks, from Professors to Joanne Public.

Last edited by mike975; 10-05-2003 at 03:20 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 04:49 PM   #278
ricdave
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<< for me, i feel distros like debian/slack/LFS/... are much better because they do not try and convince the user that linux is like windows, distros like mandrake and red hat do. >>

KDE, GNOME are window managers. There are only about 100 or so to choose from, or you can build your own with the available tools. Neither Red Hat or Mandrake or any of the other distros try to convince anyone of anything. They are simply providing the end user new to Linux with a familiar environment to start from. Those who want to know how their system works and how to troubleshoot it will do so. In the MS world they are called power users. Those who do not want to know anything beyond the fact that their stuff, browser, word processor, etc., works will not learn anything. Much like most Windows users now. They will continue to pay for help desk and other support.

I am all for diversity. I suport not only the development of Linux but also MS and Macs. Competition is good for the consumer and good for business. Having said that, I am back to my original query, to wit:

Linux is Linux. Other than a very few differences, mostly in the setup gui, what is all of the excitement about Gentoo, Debian, Sorceror, Chainsaw, etc. Bragging rights over who has the most cantankerous and difficult to set up and/or administer flavor of Linux?
 
Old 10-05-2003, 05:42 PM   #279
canon
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I'll speak specifically to the excitement about gentoo - PORTAGE. Absolutely brilliant package management system. www.gentoo.org for more.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 05:48 PM   #280
tao2000
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Mike975:
Well yes... I do like messing around with computers, although not as much as I used to. I've been an NT sysadmin, but linux is very different.
Consider: it was Microsoft who came up with the big idea of trying to convince any fool that he/she could work a computer. It was Microsoft that claimed it was so easy that anyone could do it.
The fact is, it really isn't very easy. I've admin-ed my way through hundreds of customers who find opening a door challenging. Let alone configuring and troubleshooting a PC. I should be happy: an endless supply of customers who can not compute. But I find it all a bit sad.
Linux is for those who can do what the many can not. It is what it is, and claims nothing more. Linux is a wonder, but a mighty challenging one. Windows is a can of worms that has no bottom. I still use Windows, for those tasks I can not do on Linux. For some things it is very, very good. But just don't even think of letting it anywhere near a live internet connection
 
Old 10-05-2003, 06:36 PM   #281
Scruff
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricdave
Linux is Linux. Other than a very few differences, mostly in the setup gui, what is all of the excitement about Gentoo, Debian, Sorceror, Chainsaw, etc. Bragging rights over who has the most cantankerous and difficult to set up and/or administer flavor of Linux?
The setup gui and level of difficulty is hardly the only difference between distro's. They are all built to suit different users. Some are more secure out of the box, some more stable, some include a ton of bleeding edge software packages while some use more established/stable apps. Some come bloated all to hell, some come with slim to nothing for easier configuration to suit your own needs. Some use a different form of file organisation (Slackware for instance is closer to true Unix than say RedHat or Mandrake). Some have every module there is compiled into the kernel and some have hardly any. RedHat uses some different commands than other distro's.

Like for me personally, I chose to give Slackware a try because it is closer to true Unix, doesn't come with every daemon/service running right from the start creating security problems and sucking up massive amounts of resource. I also wanted to be forced into getting deeper into real administration of Linux by taking away all the convienient "Control Panels." Why? Because those things don't teach you about computers, and when they fail you would have no idea how to fix it. Just fine for the person who doesn't want to know anything about computers, but not fine for a potential sys admin which is my ultimate career goal.

Point is, all these distro's have many differences and not all of us choose a so called tougher one just to gain 'bragging rights'.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 09:56 PM   #282
ricdave
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<< The setup gui and level of difficulty is hardly the only difference between distro's. They are all built to suit different users. >>

Yes, but the thing is, any distro can be configured to suit any user. A connection to the internet gives you access to all of the software. A kernel recompile and or edit (source) can make it as fat or as lean as you want it. Yes, I am aware of the slightly different roots of slack vs system V based Linux. Not to mention BSD. All 'nix', at bottom not, spits worth of difference between them. Other than system managers ala YAST, apt get, uprmi, and so on.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 10:26 PM   #283
Scruff
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricdave
Yes, but the thing is, any distro can be configured to suit any user.
Ok. But your original statement was that other than the setup GUI there was very little difference. If you wanted a slimmed down, light, security conscious version of Linux, would you start with Mandrake and start hacking out all the fat? Or would you start with Gentoo or Slackware and just add what you wanted/needed? Which is really the most difficult task?
If you are the type that wants to know nothing, just wants to click a few shortcuts and play on the web would you build Gentoo from source?

So back to my point, distro's are all different, and as users we just try to pick one that suits our needs. The excitement comes from accomplishing whatever task you set out to accomplish, be it installing linux for the first time, or building your system from scratch.

<edit> I would like to ammend a sentence from a previous post above as it didn't really come out right. I said: "For those people that want an alternative to M$ but have no desire to learn what's behind the 'windows' then Mandrake etc is for them."

I didn't realize what a dumb generalization that was till I just happened to re-read it

Mandrake-like distro's are for a lot of people including those that want to learn.




Last edited by Scruff; 10-05-2003 at 10:43 PM.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 11:43 PM   #284
ricdave
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<< The excitement comes from accomplishing whatever task you set out to accomplish, be it installing linux for the first time, or building your system from scratch. >>

In other words, bragging rights over who has the most cantankerous and difficult to set up and/or administer flavor of Linux? Which is ok, I guess, but if you want cutting edge on a really lean frame, give sorceror a shot. Pretty awesome distro with all of the self inflicted pain that you could want.
 
Old 10-05-2003, 11:57 PM   #285
Scruff
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LOL!! I'll have to look into it
 
  


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