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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-14-2004, 12:56 AM   #1486
benoy4007
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If some one want to go M$ please let him.
As some people belive in working with new new new tech.

As we linux users can predict future. M$ users can't
And they can't able to work out what will be the new new new tech in future. Even if they know Linux will do better in future, they think why to donnate their time now, wait untill it grow and enjoy it free.

Beggers new spend on Burger they eat shit.

Sorry to say but u are not good for Linux.

Bye
 
Old 06-14-2004, 03:36 AM   #1487
kainhart
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@benoy4007 (post 100)

I don't care about being good for linux, I care about linux being good for me. After all I consider linux the tool not myself. If Linux can prove to work for me then I will be glad to give back to the community in the form of software development contribution and money. And I also want to make the point that when people bring up issues and challenge software that is being made that we are doing a service. It's users like myself that are the customer. If enough people agree with my oppinion and it results in software making a turn for the better then I played a small part in the effort. So with this said, I believe people who try to hush others when they are voicing their problems or concerns are doing much more damage to a community. If you don't like this topic, then just please bugger off.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 06:35 AM   #1488
benoy4007
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Hello dear if u realy like your M$ then to there and help them to earn money out of u.
What the hell u r doing in this and this Linux site.
If you think u are and will not get any usefull thing from here why u rome around.

The only reason u where here is to get some thing form us. (Linux) to learn not to teach us.

So get lost with your ldeas and play with M$ (Toy).

And all u friends who where trying to teach him are wasting your time (whcih is only for Linux).

Bye
 
Old 06-14-2004, 09:53 AM   #1489
kainhart
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benoy4007 please

I don't mean to be rude by saying this but I can't really even understand the points your making. Possibly you would be better off posting to a forum in your native langauge or having somebody check over your messages before you post them. I will ask you once again to not reply to this thread if you have nothing useful to say.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 11:37 AM   #1490
prophet621
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Kainhart: I agree completely with everythig you said. I've been watching Linux for years, since Mandrake 4 I believe and I never had any doubts about it's potential. There were always a few things that held it back but I knew they would get better as time went by. I remember hardware detection being almost non-existant, just about everything you had to set up yourself. Now that is mostly a thing of the past. Sure some things still need tweaking or setup but most is done durring install.

The other thing was software installation, there really hasn't been much improvement here. It's still a headache. Sure Suse worked out Yast2 and Mandrake introduced urpmi but that's pretty much it, oh and Gentoo portage. Other than that it's still the same nightmare it always was. I'm more virually oriented and can't remember commands very well so using the command console is a last resort for me with the exception of some commands for information and troubleshooting purposes. Then you need to worry about which distro and version you have and either set a source list to install it for you and hope something doesn't break when a dependency was updated or you install it manually and welcome to dependency hell. *obviously speaking rpms and .deb here*

I would have thought that this utterly archaic method would have been updated by now but I still wait and hope. Too many zealots who don't want it to change or bash distros that try to make things easier. While I will complain about some of these distros myself it's for reasons other than the zealots. I complain about these distros because they make so many changes to them you can only use their packages rather than the universal ones or something won't work right. You make any negative reference to their precious Linux and you're told to go back to Windows and Linux isn't for you.

The only orther grip I have every really had was lack of decent software. While I firmly believe Linux is a superior OS, the OS itself is primarily secondary to me and many users, it's the software that matters and though Linux has an abundance of software it's lacking decent software. A dozen apps that do exactly the same thing and all are like several versions behind their Windows counterpart. All too often Linux uses seem to rationalize subpar software. There are certain apps I use for work and for a hobby that either don't exist in Linux or are missing so many features it's a waste of time to bother with them but I constantly get blasted by Linux users if I bring things like this up. I dual boot Linux on my laptop and will be scraping Windows this weekend and go with just Linux because this may force me to learn more but I won't do any real work on it because of lack of software I need. When it comes time to do some real work I'll jump on my desktop and Windows and get it done.

Still, despite this, the potential of Linux is astounding. I would just love to see the software issues worked out a bit more.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 11:46 AM   #1491
MattShepherd
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For what it's worth...

...this is a blog posting from the comic I write from this morning chronicling my final abandonment of Linux.

I've read through this thread and there's nothing here that hasn't been said already, but I still feel somehow obliged to say it.

APOLOGIES FOR LENGTH. I like to yammer.

A Farewell to Linux

Since I decided that I was gonna lose some weight and shape up in February, I've been working out three times a week. Not as consistently as I'd like, but more weeks than not, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I've tossed some weight around the bench downstairs.

That didn't happen this morning.

At 5:50 a.m., I decided I'd check my e-mail as a wake-up before lifting heavy objects. To my delight, there was a response to a post I'd put up on LinuxQuestions.org dealing with my problem with KMail: basically, for ten days now, it's been pretending to send mail (no error messages, into the sent mail box) without actually sending a thing.

At 6:30 a.m., I was still trying to configure KMail. I changed my SMTP protocols and security settings, tried using a Sendmail server, searched the internet for similar problems, tried changing SMTP settings again, uninstalled user accounts, reinstalled user accounts. I got it to send e-mail to one address, but not any others.

Having spent an hour late last week figuring out how to install Mozilla, I thought I'd try its mailer instead. Surprisingly, it worked.

So I thought I'd just transfer my mail over from KMail to Mozilla, use Mozilla, and have done with it.

Couldn't be done. KMail has no export command, and Mozilla wouldn't recognize the mail when I transferred it over. Posting a question (one of many) about this at LinuxQuestions, I am now informed that it might work if I change the mail format of KMail.

But the point is, I didn't work out this morning.

At 8 a.m., I was running to gulp down some coffee and wolf down a piece of toast because I was late for work, James still didn't have his Man-Man scripts, and I had nothing to show for another several hours reading technical documents, help files, and Web forums.

And, if I choose to go home and bash my head against KMail again, I won't be doing something else then, too.

It's been about a month since I first tried using Linux as my day-to-day OS. And it's been a rewarding month in a lot of ways, but I came to a pretty conclusive point this morning:

I have other things to do.

To my reckoning, I've spent about ten hours, in total, on this e-mail problem. To say nothing of the amount of time I'm going to spend rectifying and resolving all the problems that Linux and KMail have CAUSED by pretending to send e-mails that never went out. Among many other things, I THOUGHT I'd sent James ten scripts last Monday that never arrived, and he's been waiting on me to do Man-Man. I THOUGHT I'd sent Roy scripts for The License, and now I'm behind on that. Putting out the fires KMail has started is going to double the time I've spent rectifying its problems. Easily.

I've also spent at least six hours trying to install my Radeon9000 video card. I've read up on three different methods, all insisting that the other ones are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Not one of them has actually worked. I now face the headache of figuring out how to uninstall old packages and reinstall new packages and it is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED that I start from a fresh install, which means losing all the OTHER stuff I've done.

And again, the Linux community has been supportive and giving and has suggested a variety of other things I could download and try to spend another three or four hours zipping and unzipping packages and installing and uninstalling code and manually altering boot sequences and config files.

I still have a scanner that doesn't work.

I still have a printer that doesn't work.

I still have a beautiful Delta44 sound card that doesn't work.

The 3D for the monitor doesn't work.

The wheel on my mouse doesn't work.

The digital camera doesn't work.

The software for my minidisc player doesn't work.

And as much as it pains me to admit it -- especially after investing dozens of hours in Linux -- Windows works.

There comes a point, see, when an average fellow like me realizes that when something doesn't work, it not be because I haven't reconfigured the protocols to reflect the newest kernel of the KDE interface as it reacts to the older parameters of the whammy port of the video card's framjammer influx chip.

When something doesn't work, it's often because it's broken.

Linux is, to me, broken. It's a massively huge broken machine. And somebody reasonably intelligent, with the right tools and know-how, can make this massively broken machine work for them. Hell, they can get this massively broken machine to HUM for them. They can turn that massively broken machine into the fastest hot rod on the track.

But for those of us that do not have those tools, nor the know-how, nor the time, it's broken. Plain and simple. It's broken because it just don't work.

Extending the analogy above: if I buy a car, I want to get from point A to point B in reasonably decent shape. Linux is like having eight tons of raw iron ore dropped on your lawn with a welding torch and a diagram in Swedish, and a bunch of enthusiastic shop students telling you how wide the gap between your sparkplugs has to be.

I've now spent more time trying to configure Linux to do what are, in the computer world, pretty everyday tasks -- 3D rendering, sending e-mail, making a blinkin' shortcut in the program menu -- than I have spent in the last year recovering and re-creating things lost in Windows crashes. I can't REMEMBER the last time XP freaked out on me.

I've spent time trying to get Linux to do what Windows does automatically. And I've spent time that I could have used painting my windowframes, or playing with the cat, or working on the Mutants & Masterminds campaign I run, or doing any number of things that might actually advance my personal life or professional career.

And now I'm faced with a decision:

I can go home and spend another evening in front of the computer, trying to get it to send e-mail (which Windows does without a hitch), trying to get my video card to work (and, by the way, while I get full dual-monitor extended desktop in Windows, I will never ever get that in Linux, just two cloned displays, which is as useless as a rubber crutch), trying to get my sound card to work, trying to play a CD in my CD-ROM drive, trying to figure out what I have to do to record audio...

...or I can go home, boot into XP, and work on Man-Man scripts. Work on The License or Deadies. I can do what I need to do quickly and efficiently, and then make myself a very nice lunch for tomorrow: grilled chicken on a bed of cous-cous, perhaps, or a tuna salad sandwich, or maybe a wrap of some sautéed vegetables. I could call my folks on the telephone and talk to them. I could watch a really good movie.

I'm still committed to using open-source software when I can. I like OpenOffice. I like Mozilla. I'm no big fan of Microsoft.

But I've come to the conclusion that Linux is, from the perspective of an end-user with limited amounts of time, broken. And I just don't have time to fix it.

This causes no small amount of anxiety. I hate giving up on things, I hate admitting defeat. My stomach churns when I type that Linux has beaten me, and I'm retreating to the safe operating system because I just can't figure out how to do what I need to do.

But it has. Linux has whupped me. I just don't have time to deal with it, and I don't have the mental resources to learn a foreign language right now. I want drivers, and software that works the way it says it will, and plug and play things that plug and play. I don't want to spend three hours editing command lines to try to get a mouse wheel to work. I don't want to spend my Sunday afternoons crouched over a keyboard trying to convince my computer that its DVD-R is "mounted."

I choose Windows.

I choose Windows and reading a book with a glass of red wine and some jazz on the stereo.

I choose Windows and playing a board game with some friends.

I choose Windows and calling up an old pal on the phone.

I choose Windows and going for a walk in the woods.

I choose Windows and writing the Great Canadian Novel.

I choose Windows and sitting in a warm bath watching the fish tanks.

I choose Windows and making the best damn Mutants & Masterminds campaign ever.

I choose Windows and great Man-Man scripts.

I choose Windows and re-caulking that draughty doorframe.

I'm sorry, Linus Torvalds. I'm sorry, JR and Crispy and RabidChipmunk and all you other helpful Linux folks that understand these things. But I'm going home tonight and changing the boot order of my machine (which will, doubtlessly, take three hours). From now on, I'm booting to XP. If I need the space, I'll reformat that Linux partition.

Because there's a lot of stuff I have to do. Linux isn't one of them.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 11:58 AM   #1492
qwijibow
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Location: nottingham england
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posted my hainhart
Quote:
If I want an application such as gaim on Windows it's as simple as 1. download 2. double click 3. follow the directions on screen. Linspire may have a one click install but that only includes software that Lindows Inc. wants to include. So, until somebody can prove me wrong develop a simple method for installing random software found on the web that is made for Linux, Windows will always be one very large step infront of Linux in this respect.
i cant disagee more.
anyways, whats so hard about rpm ?

Lnux's strength is also it 'weakness' as you seem to call it.

the reason you can download whatever and just double click it to install in windows, is because all windows omputers are exactly the same.... NO CHOICE.
they all have Internet explorer, Outlook express, same kernel, same servers same ruuntime library's same everything. windows machines are like clones.

where as with linux, machines are all different, different servers, different versions, different desktops different runtimes.. CHOISE !!!

now here is where the strength it...
take a herd of cloned sheep.... then a infection / bacteria / virus comes along and is capable of killing 1 sheep, then it is capable of killing all sheep, and before you know it, all the cloes are dead.

with linux. the sheep are all slightly different, some sheep might be vunerable to an infection, but because of the huge range of differences, most will not, a single virus could not kill all of them.

The advantage to a field full of cloned sheep... is that you could just rip a kidney out one one sheep and slap it in anouther without the organ being rejected,, they are clones.. in linux that would not work.

which is why installing is more difficult. every machine is different.

wow...... i just pulled all that off the top of my head.... is any of it understandable ?
 
Old 06-14-2004, 12:48 PM   #1493
lyceum
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to kainhart:

apt-get and the synaptic gui handle the dependencies for you. if you were to choose gaim from the package list in synaptic to install, it would tell you that you had to have these other packages that gaim is dependent upon. it really is a no-brainer. apt-get from the command line does the same. and if i remember correctly, (at work on an xp box now) when you highlight a package in synaptic you can get details about said package at the bottom of the window. one of those tabs (think it's the last one) has the dependency info.

hope this helps.

Last edited by lyceum; 06-14-2004 at 12:49 PM.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 01:11 PM   #1494
lyceum
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to MattShepherd:

sorry to see you go. perhaps you will find this thread useful for changing your boot order. and if i might suggest something, leave linux there for the time being. i tried to turn away from it once and was drawn back in. that is of course unless you REALLY need that disk space right now.

hope this helps.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 01:58 PM   #1495
prophet621
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Matt:

To basically repeat what Lyceum just said, go ahead and leave Linux for the time being and just reverse the boot order so that Windows is default. I too have left Linux several times because of various issues and can sympathize with what you said, it truly does often seem broken and Windows works, but I and many others still watch it's progress and inevidably give it more chances to piss us off.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 02:04 PM   #1496
kainhart
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Ok, I don't think many of the real linux users are getting my points. When I try to voice my frustrations about apt-get and yum and rpms and how it all still does not solve my problems with dependencies I think people are assuming that I'm talking about the software that is available in some repository that has been indexed by somebody or some company. What I'm actually trying to say is that I want to install things that I download manually off the web. I want to install random things that I find on freshmet.net. I want to install Englightment. I want to install mono and MonoDevelop to do some c# development on Linux. None of these are listed when I type apt-get install englightment, or yum install mono. Yes I think attaching to repositories and getting updates is neat and fun, but I also want to install things that are outside of whats offered there. I want choice! My choice is that I want to install any software that is compatable with my system without a single use of the command line and with out chasing down dependencies. Is that choice satisfied by the technologies available on Linux? Well thats what I'm trying to find out, if not I'll either wait for it or try to develop it myself.

The whole comparison about cloned animals and stuff is interesting but I really don't think it's realistic with the state of computers how they are and with what people are trying to achieve. The way you have worded it, once I choose a distro and a set of applications that now I have given up the abbility to install or use other applications. I haven't found anything close to this on Linux in reality. It seems like there is a lot out there and intercompatablity is actually suprizingly decent. This is mostlikly becuase of the nature of open development. What you describe about each Linux installation being different has no relevance with the installation problems that I'm talking about. And incompatabilities caused by fragmentation of software standards is not a good side effect of open source software development. This is why there are movements like freedesktop.org, mono, and other cross-product intercompatability strategies eminating.

Linux techies please do not take these critisisms personal as I'm simply trying to find information and discuss my frustrations with Linux. I'm not inferring that linux doens't have it's strengths it's just that some of it's weak points are still major hurdles for any user new or expeirence when compared whats available on different platforms (I'm not only referring to Windows).
 
Old 06-14-2004, 02:41 PM   #1497
Dirty_Ink
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Matt: I would never have you delete your Windows partition but what i would have you do is find some new distros, try some LiveCD's at first, such as SUSE live 9.1, Knopix, and the like, but i would really suggest is PCLinuxOS its a livecd it has everything you need right out the box, flash, quicktime, dvd playback, synaptic ect. and it has really good hardware detection, plus its free, so really u have nothing to lose, keep your Windows partition and just use one of these for like checking e mail or sending and e mail that isnt critical, if u just spent a little time finding the distro thats just right for you I bet u would change your attitude towards linux.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 03:34 PM   #1498
thejokker
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i see what your getting at, im fairly new to linux and yes the rpm makes it so easy to get whats one those repositories, and remove them simple and easy. but if you are just looking around freshmeat or some site and see a proggie for linux you want its a little more complicated because most of them are .tz not .rpm. i understand that its not impossible to learn to install and deal with these things but it is diffrent, and diffrent can be difficult.

case and point, my brother-n-law hasnt used windows in ages, he tried messing with a XP box and got frustraed in 3 min, i had to rescue him and fix it for him. Its diffrent and diffrent can be difficult.

now if any of you have a minuete of time could you look to another post i have about my yum file, its on the fritz and i explained the problem in this post http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...readid=193461.
 
Old 06-14-2004, 03:43 PM   #1499
cprogrck
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I can't believe this post is still going on. People aren't even talking about the original question. I've read this whole thread (can you believe it?). The reason why linux isn't easy for the general population is because nobody really cares about the general population, because the "general population" is Windows users. A lot of Linux geeks (myself included) DO NOT care if it's easy for the general population because it dosen't really matter. Furthermore, making it easy for the "general population" would mean making more simular to windows. Nobody wants a open source version of Windows. Of course a user who hasn't used an OS before is going to find it hard at first. The only thing about linux is (in some cases ex: distros like slackware, redhat) that you have to learn advanced functions quickly, There are distros like Mandrake that install very painlessly and have great driver support.The only way for us to stop this senseless bickering is to realize the future of linux won't look anything like the future of Windows. When Linux is ready for the "general population" it'll be because innovation. If you don't like Linux, shut up, or change it. The way Linux is going to really take off is when it starts having unique things. A good example is Sun's Project Looking Glass. If this thread was code we would've already used enough code to write a decent app. More people should really start helping Linux. You don't have to be a guru to do so. Write a manual for newbies, make icons, post an idea for a new app, give suggestions to developers. If you have problems with Linux email a distro and give them input. I'm sure they'll listen, especially if you have good ideas. The point I'm making here is that there's nothing really wrong with Linux. It's not easy to use because few have used it. If you want a "easier" OS go get one. If you want LInux to be "easier" make it easier. However everyone should realize that opinions aren't facts. Just because many people think Linux is hard doesn't mean it is hard. If you can't figure out how to run at least one Linux distro you don't deserve a computer, unless you're opening willing and capable to learn. If someone installed windows in the same manner as people install Linux (NO DRIVERS THAT ARE CUSTOM MADE FOR YOUR SYSTEM or NOT PREINSTALLED SO EVERYTHING WORKS FINE ALREADY)(also assuming they have never used windows before), then it would be hard if not harder to set it up. Another thing to realize is that not all apps can be open source. Sometimes things need to be closed for technology to really progress.I'm not saying that open source things are bad or that no good apps can come out of the open source community, however I'm saying that things like video games don't progress as fast when they're open source. |Case study tux racer|. The original tux racer (the open source version) was great! However, when tux racer went closed the actual game got far better. The graphics are better and there are more levels (i think). The point is that some times developers can produce More when they can work on things all day as a full time job. Most open source developers can't. They gotta eat don;t they? A new open source model must be introduced. I notice that open source "core programs" (by that I mean thins like game engines, and kernels) work fine and progress relatively fast. However there may be a lack of opensorce artist. There always seems to be a bott leneck when it comes to polishing things up. Like tux racer. The opensource version was great. All it needed was a few more levels and maybe a few more textures. My answer to making Linux easier for the general population right now is to do nothing. Instead of making it easier why not let people get smarter? All we have to do is start a computer company offer powerful computers for less than the other big companies like Dell by shiping the computers with Linux instead of Windows. The only problem with that is there would have to be 2 versions normal and advanced. The normal version would consist of a linux distro much like Mandrake, but would come with more drivers and apps that open automaticaly. Such as a version of wine the loads it'self and executes the proper commands when a windows installation program is activated. I have no problem with typing wine and then the program name followed by .exe but some people may have that problem. The advanced versions would be like the current distros. Ship linux with computers of a lower price (not quality) of other competitors and your problem is solved. You could even leave linux the same and do the same thing (assuming you have good marketing). Like I said in a few previous post "Why should the general population install somthing they already have?" The "general population" only wants a desktop email etc. So why should they uninstall windows, or dual boot to do so? Linux works great as a desktop, but (I hate to say this, I mean I really hate to say this) so does Windows. Linux is already easy enough! It just needs to be shipped standard with a major or soon to be major computer company's computers. There's only two reasons I can think of for the "general population to use Linux. one, Price. Two, innovative features. Not only, that they have to be included with their computer. OK, I'm done with my rant!
 
Old 06-14-2004, 03:52 PM   #1500
thejokker
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its humours to listen to some of the problems people have that make windows hard. not that they dont have valid reasons, but because i work at a retail electronics store and the people that come in and the problems that they encounter, they want to run as far from windows as possible. Windows is less difficult to some degree, in part because youve been using it for 10+ years, you better know how some of it works. you think riding a bike is easy? not to a child who hasnt been on one. you think walking is easy, not to a toddler. you think windows is easy, not to everyone. Linux will become more user friendly but it will also grow in cost in order to do so. the open source community does not care about customer base, and user retention. a company with bottom lines will care about those things, so red hat or sun or some other company that is trying to penetrate other markets and niches will look to make its version more user friendly to expand profit, and will be able to charge more because of these features. we live in an open-market and therefore those looking to make money will provide what is wanted, for a price.
 
  


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